Talk:United Nations Convention Against Torture

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On 23 August 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from United Nations Convention against Torture to United Nations Convention Against Torture. The result of the discussion was moved.

Back to the topic: the United Nations Convention against Torture

This is not an article about [[torture]

It is about the United Nations Convention against Torture. There is only one supranational organization with authority and jurisdiction for the United Nations Convention against Torture and that is the United Nations Security Council. International law for torture other than the UNSC is thus totally irrelevant to this article and I will be editing these out discussions of international law that are irrelevant for this article.

The United Nations Charter

The United Nations Charter is the only primary International law for the adjudication of the United Nations Convention against Torture. As a charter, it is a constituent treaty, and all members are bound by its articles. Furthermore, Article 103 of the Charter states that obligations to the United Nations prevail over all other treaty obligations.^[1]^[2] Raggz (talk) 18:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Cite error: The named reference intro was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter16.shtml, Chap 16, Article 103

Definition of torture

I edited "Pursuant to this interpretation, only sanctions that are authorized by international law will fall within this exclusion. "

Many nations are not subject to any supernational jurisdiction other than the UNSC. Obviously findings by the ECHR and/or the ICC are without jurisdiction. The word "only" was deleted because it implies that one or both have global universal jurisdiction when they only do for their members. Raggz (talk) 18:05, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

It would be good to see a list of the nations who have ratified and/or signed the act - does anyone have one? Andrewferrier 21:48, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)

Signatories list added

I located a page with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights site explicitly listing the countries signing/ratifying with dates and added it to the external links. I tweaked the description for the external link to the official site for the convention to remove the statement that it includes a list of signatories because the link on the UN site for that doesn't work (you can't get the list using it). - Benjamin Franz (Sun Mar 6 14:18:22 UTC 2005)

Added map of members

Based on the [OHCHR's ratification list] - Idiot Savant (Mon Dec 19 17:00 NZDT 2005)

'Recent history' section

I have deleted the first paragraph of that section. The issue of what constitutes torture is not a settled one, and it is plainly incorrect to state that the ECHR's holding in the Ireland v. United Kingdom judgment, rendered more than thirty years ago, is today's relevant law on torture in Europe. There has been much development by the ECHR in subsequent cases regarding what constitutes and what does not constitute torture.

I do not have time to write this section correctly, but for the time being this article should not tell lies to the readers. If anyone else wishes to get into this, I suggest that that the writer be familiar, at the very least, with the following basic materials:

- The following ECHR cases: Selmouni v. France, Tomasi v. France, Ribitsch v. Austria, Aksoy v. Turkey, Aydin v. Turkey, among others. - The following HRC cases: Estrella v. Uruguay, López Burgos v. Uruguay, Cariboni v. Uruguay, Muteba v. Zaire, among many many others. - The CAT's new General Comment, issued in the session which was recently held. - The following ICTY cases: Furundzija, Celebici, Kunarac, Krnojelac, Kvocka, Mrksic, among others. - The following IACtHR cases: Villagrán Morales v. Guatemala, Castro Castro Prison v. Peru, Loayza Tamayo v. Perú, Suárez Rosero v. Ecuador, Lori Berenson v. Perú, Cantoral Benavides v. Perú, Tibi v. Ecuador. - The reports of the U.N. Special Rapporteurs on Torture. - The book "The Treatment of Prisoners Under International Law" by Nigel S. Rodley.

Otherwise, this would be, once again, a superficial paragraph with very obvious imprecisions. If no one does this, I'm willing to write the section in a couple of months.Guillermo Otálora Lozano (talk) 03:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted the last paragraph. It makes no sense here. It is obvious that the Convention against torture does not violate any civil rights or other provisions within the Constitution of the United States. It is also incorrect. The US can go into any treaty. If the Congress (even silently) agrees it comes into force. The US is from then on bound and liable. A country (neither the US) can not avoid international obligations by amending its constitution. It is just the same as in civil law. A corporation can not breach a contract by changing its statutes. I'm sorry to read ever and again the same myopic US nationalistic ramblings about their constitution. Otto (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You may not delete a relevant fact that has a reliable source because your opinion differs. If Ireland v. UK (1979) has been actually overturned or superceeded, please cite a reliable source. Otherwise the present law should remain stated as it actually is. Most laws are thirty years old, the Geneva Convention was signed in 1899, is it expired yet?.

A treaty cannot come into force "silently" within the US, whatever are you talking about. The US is bound by international law when (1) the US judiciary decides or (2) when the UN Security Council decides. If you want to claim otherwise, get a reliable source first. Of course a "country can avoid international obligations by amending its constitution". The US Supreme Court is the only body that has ever decided such an issue, and the US Supreme Court will follow the US Constitution. The UN Security Council may enforce treaties that are listed with the UN with the US as a signatory. If a treaty does list the US within the UN, only the US Supreme Court has jurisdiction. For your analogy: a corporation may cancel any contract, (but not cancel obligations by it prior to cancellation).

Your pov may be that you dislike "the same myopic US nationalistic ramblings about their constitution". Too bad. Your opinions are not relevant, the article is about the actual facts. IF you find a reliable source to support your opinions I then encourge you to edit them in, but following the NPOV policy. How much do you know about the US Constitution? THE EU lacks any constitution and so is not a liberal democracy like the US is. The European attitude that constitutions are optional does not represent much of the world and does not reflect the US view. The US is a nation where the rule of law requires the consent of the governed. The Constitution places limits upon governmental authority, this is to deter tyranny. Raggz (talk) 20:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Er, I hate to break it to you, but Europe does have liberal democracies. Read the intro to the article you linked and get back to me. In fact, the US isn't this special entity where only it has a Constitution and nowhere else does. Most countries (European ones and everywhere else too) have one. My country (the UK) is an exception to this.

Do you disagree with Otto when he says, "It is obvious that the Convention against torture does not violate any civil rights or other provisions within the Constitution of the United States"? It is true that "a country (neither the US) can not avoid international obligations by amending its constitution." Even if the US decided to amend the constitution to allow torture, the US government could still be tried for war crimes (either by the US itself or by the UN) because they would've broken international obligations. A country's constitution is not some magic fix that allows them to ignore an internationally agreed contract. If they opt out of this UN convention and then torture, then obviously they are not bound by this contract anymore. But since it is obvious the US has been torturing people while signed up to this, then in theory Cheney and co can be tried for war crimes. The only thing that stops it from happening in practice is the political will to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.12.255 (talk) 03:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Link appropriateness

This link: http://www.redress.org/publications/CAT%20Implementation%20paper%2013%20Feb%202006.pdf REDRESS' handbook for states on how to comply with the Convention

Seems to have been added by Redress.org's Director. This is against our guidelines since there is a clear concern about conflict of interest. And with Redress having a specific mission issues of neutrality should also be considered as well as whether it is on point enough for the article. So I've moved it here so that uninvolved editors can discuss its appropriateness for our external links section. -- SiobhanHansa 19:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of numbers following some countries names

In the Signatories of CAT section, without any explanation, some countries have numbers after their names, like "Bosnia and Herzegovina 3", "China 4 , 5", "Croatia 3", "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 4 , 10". What's the meaning behind? --Quest for Truth (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Non-members

Which countries are non-members? -- Frap (talk) 10:01, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

USA: Signatory with reservations?

Have seen that USA reserved expressly the right of the CIA to be allowed to perform torture. Since CIA et al has been accused and not denied use of water-boardiing, what is the case here in 1. the first question posed 2. the use of waterboarding and its classification by the Convention Thankful for answers.Idealist707 (talk) 22:05, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 23 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

United Nations Convention against Torture → United Nations Convention Against Torture – Per MOS:TITLECAPS "Against" should be capitalized in titles of works. Current title is capitalized per UN style, not Wikipedia style. @Good Olfactory moved the page from target to current title, but the original title was correct under the guidelines. For an identical change that was reverted under this guideline, see Talk:United Nations Convention Against Corruption#Requested move 24 March 2021. Knr5 (talk) 17:03, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Knr5's reading of the guideline is correct. Thanks for doing this. Wallnot (talk) 23:25, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support the move as the title of a work per MOS:TITLECAPS. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:29, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per TITLECAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 01:55, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per MOS:CT. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:24, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per MOS:TITLECAPS. Graham (talk) 05:01, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per TITLECAPS. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Map -- Antarctica

...should be removed or colored differently as it is not a state that hasn't signed; it isn't a state at all. Maybe nitpicky but still. 100.40.29.79 (talk) 08:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[intro-1] Cite error: The named reference intro was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[2] ttp://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter16.shtml, Chap 16, Article 103

[1]

[2]