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Discussion moved from User talk:Mir Harven#Image copyright and User talk:Ellmist#Image:Aralica.jpg.

Thank you for uploading Image:Aralica.jpg, and thank you for stating the source. However, its copyright status is unclear, so it may have to be deleted. If it is open content or public domain, please give proof of this on the image page. If the image is fair use, please provide a rationale. Thank you. --Ellmist 06:14, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanx for asking. It's from a Website I'm one of the owners of (www.hercegbosna.org). I'll put explanatory info. Best Mir Harven 19:18, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is Image:Aralica.jpg licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License? --Ellmist 00:17, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm...frankly, I dont know all the stipulations of GNU free license. I can only attest that this is from the site www.hercegbosna.org, where it was taken from in a perfectly legal way- and the aforementioned site obtained it in a perfetly legal way ca. 2 ys ago (frankly, I dont remember the source, but I guess it was Croatian Academy of Arts & Sciences, which has no copyright restrictions with regard to it visual content). This is as much as I know. Best Mir Harven 08:37, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For any image to be included in Wikipedia, one of these needs to happen:

--Ellmist 19:07, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, it boils down to public domain. Pics and other similar material from the Internet presentation of institutions like Croatian Academy or various institutes are for free. My site, www.hercegbosna.org, has freely downloaded virtually zillion images from state-sponsored institutions in Croatia. Essentially-they dont give a hoot. Best Mir Harven 21:54, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't mean to sound rude, but is there a public domain dedication? Creative works are copyrighted unless the creator explicitly states otherwise. --Ellmist 22:45, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hm...I think I know what's troubling you- but this is, IMO, resolved. I'll repeat: the Aralica.jpg was obtained in a perfectly legal manner from the site www.hercegbosna.org, which operates on a perfectly legal basis. The point is, I'd say, that the notion of legality is different here, in Croatia, and there where you write from. It can be succinctly summarized thusly: there are *no* uniform Internet legal procedures across the globe. Period. As I see, you referred to the notions of photos as artistic (or intellectual, whatever) property and the necessity of explicitly stated public domain status. Here, ordinary photos of a person (or anything similar) have no artistic nor intellectual anything about them- they're just free for use for everyone (exceptions are, for instance, art or portrait or landscape photographies, Helmut Newton-kind etc. Otherwise- it's just free pic and nothing more). The other thing is public domain. Well- if it isn't explicity stated it *is not* public- it is free. That's the way it works. Sorry if I haven't answered your questions satisfactorily (from yoir POV), but, it only points out to (at least for me) interesting cultural difference: what is a perfect legal procedure for you, for me is a Kafkan bureaucratic nightmare. And it cannot be reduced to GNU license arguments or anything similar- simply because they are not universal with regard to legality of Internet material in particular countries. Various countries, various legal systems re copyrighted material. If you're not satisfied, feel free to write to the source and check it. Best Mir Harven 09:05, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'll be the first to admit that I am very, very far from knowledgeable about Croatian copyright law, so please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong. I am also unfamiliar with the distinction between photographs of people and photographic portraits. According to the Copyright treaty table article, Croatia is a signatory to the Berne Convention. The Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works article says, "Copyright under the Berne Convention is automatic: no registration is required, nor is the inclusion of a copyright notice." The English translation of the Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts web page says, "Copyright © HAZU All rights reserved." I have found the image in question on the Croation Academy of Sciences and Arts web page [1], in addition to the source you mentioned earlier. This page does not have a copyright notice. As you can see, I'm getting conflicting messages, so, based on your extensive and polite explanation, I have marked Image:Aralica.jpg as public domain. I have emailed Dalibor Paar (dpaar@hazu.hr) at the Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts:

Dear Dalibor Paar,
I am writing to confirm whether Akademik Ivan Aralica's photograph [1] is in the public domain, meaning it has no copyright restrictions. A user named Mir Harven has uploaded this image from the Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts website [2] to Ivan Aralica's article [3] in Wikipedia [4]. Wikipedia is a free, multi-lingual, collaboratively-edited encyclopedia. The Hrvatski Wikipedia [5] has a translation [6] of the article.

This user claims on the discussion page [7] that this image is in the public domain, but for the image to remain on our site, we need further evidence that this is the case.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to your response.

Yours faithfully,
Brian Schack

Have a nice day. --23:38, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Great. I'm glad you e-mailed the Academy, just to settle the dispute. Best Mir Harven 21:30, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dear mr. Schack,
you can use all materials on the Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts website for Wikipedia, including that photograph, if you name Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts website a reference.

With best regards,
Dalibor Paar

OK, cool. Best Mir Harven 22:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The issue is settled. Thank you for your time. --Ellmist 01:51, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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