Talk:Wheel of the Year

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wheel of the Year article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

Festivals Low‑importance

	Holidays portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Festivals, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Festivals on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FestivalsWikipedia:WikiProject FestivalsTemplate:WikiProject FestivalsFestivals articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Holidays Low‑importance

	Holidays portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Holidays, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of holidays on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HolidaysWikipedia:WikiProject HolidaysTemplate:WikiProject HolidaysHolidays articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Neopaganism High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Neopaganism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Neopaganism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NeopaganismWikipedia:WikiProject NeopaganismTemplate:WikiProject NeopaganismNeopaganism articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Time Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Time, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Time on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TimeWikipedia:WikiProject TimeTemplate:WikiProject TimeTime articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Religion Mid‑importance

	Religion portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.

This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

[[Wicca#The God and the Goddess|the God and the Goddess]] The anchor (#The God and the Goddess) is no longer available because it was deleted by a user before.

Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

New wheel of the year diagram

I just added another wheel of the year diagram to Wikimedia Commons, and subsequently to this page. I was inspired to make this calendar for me personally, and chose not to use the more modern uses of mabon, litha and ostara. I notice that the dates I've used, which come from https://wheeloftheyear.soundragon.su/ do not correspond with the dates of the older diagram. Happy to receive feedback. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Douginamug (talk • contribs) 21:06, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The cross dates don't match up with any source except the reference you provide, which uses the same diagram. I removed the image. Darker Dreams (talk) 09:48, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Darker Dreams I quickly found several sources mentioning astrological dates for cross-quarter days, although none of them appear to be of high reputability:

In any case, it appears the astrological dates are notable.

I could also try and adapt the diagram to display the popular cross-quarter dates. Do you think such a diagram would be an improvement to the page?

For the record, the initial site I linked copied and adapted the diagram after I made it: I don't know the site author. https://gitlab.com/zlax/solarwheeloftheyear/-/issues/1

Cheers, DougInAMugtalk 18:30, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.starmythworld.com/mathisencorollary/2011/05/what-are-cross-quarter-days.html - doesn't speak to tradition, explicitly goes out to calculate cross quarters mathematically. Which is interesting, possibly something to include in the text of the page along side information like Seasonal lag, but not the topic of the page, and not something that should be substituted for accepted dates in a major image for the page.

https://www.stellaseaspirit.co.za/cross-quarter-days-beltane-samhain/ - explicitly calls out the traditionally celebrated dates in the Wheel of the Year (topic of the page) with notes about the offset for astrology.

https://www.archaeoastronomy.com/ - again, explicitly goes for calculation rather than as-celebrated or as-recognized.

I do think your version is a visual improvement, and will generally vote for increasing information. But, it seems important to keep the dates that have been recognized and celebrated by active Pagans for decades, and can be found in dozens of books on the religion(s), as the primary marked dates when illustrating the subject. Doing otherwise may not be *original* research, but it's going to create unnecessary confusion in people looking for information and looks pretty disrespectful towards the existing, active, modern practitioners. Darker Dreams (talk) 04:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Darker Dreams I agree with you that the popular dates for the cross-quarter days are the firsts of the respective months, and that a prominent diagram with the astrological dates would therefore be inappropriate per WP:FALSEBALANCE

However, the argumentation that the astrological dates don't "speak to tradition" or are "disrespectful towards the existing ... practitioners" does not preclude their notability. If other people are using astrological dates, they belong, in a balanced way, in Wikipedia. Is there a particularly good book among the dozens you mentioned that does a good job of tracing the dates of celebration? I'd be interested to have a read.

For now, I'll think about how I could amend the diagram to the popular dates. I also wonder if there are enough, good sources to justify an "astrological dates" section towards the end of the page with the diagram as is: I'll have a look. DougInAMugtalk 21:22, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't remember for sure off the top of my head which books talk through the development of the modern Wheel of the Year calendar, but Drawing Down the Moon (book) seems like a reasonable bet. Pretty much any book on Wicca, modern Druidry, or eclectic Paganism will have that same calendar. Most books on Heathenry will at least acknowledge it. As for how to include the astronomical cross-days information in the text, or include the diagram as-is, I'd look to how Seasonal lag is included. Darker Dreams (talk) 15:09, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Zlax I recommend you read the above discussion to understand why @Darker Dreams reverted your edit. You also seem to have used a source you authored to reference a point. I think this practice borders on WP:COI but I'm not sure. Welcome to Wikipedia! DougInAMugtalk 20:39, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]