Talk:Hull classification symbol

Backlinks

Hull classification symbols are used in lots of articles, but seldom explained - or with links to here. In other words: this article need more backlinks!

Therefore one cleanup project would be to go through every (US) ship and ship class and ship type article and ensure that it links here at least once, either when discussing or the ship type or when listing its hull classification. Thx CapnZapp (talk) 21:03, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

@CapnZapp: I would suggest you post this at WT:SHIP and WT:MILHIST, if you want to bring more attention to this issue. (jmho) - wolf 21:25, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! This discussion has now been advertised at both locations. CapnZapp (talk) 11:27, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

TOC

The archive bot's instructions ensures a TOC will be maintained at all times, once there again is 4 or more sections on the page. Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 22:29, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

automatic archiving is in place

Just as a friendly heads up, the page has now been set up with automatic archiving.

{{auto archiving notice}}

No manual archiving necessary! :)

Best Regards, CapnZapp (talk) 22:31, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Coast Guard Cutter Barque Eagle

There was a recent edit about the USCG regarding how it refers to it's vessels. By definition, any commissioned vessel in USCG service over a certain size is a cutter. If you look at the definition of a Barque, it's simply a sailing ship of a certain size with a certain number of sails.

The recent edit should be removed as it's irrelevant due to the above (it's still a cutter as it's commissioned and above the minimum size, and is used as a training cutter by the USCG, the fact that it's a Barque is not mutually exclusive with it being a cutter.) but I'm not willing to unilaterally make that decision and remove the irrelevant (and possibly even misleading) information. Chemputer (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

After looking into the sources provided and additional ones I went ahead and reverted it as it's simply misleading and incorrect. The sources, the most official ones, provided by the USCG themselves, refer to it as a cutter unambiguously. It was commissioned as a cutter, and that remains its commission to this day.

I believe the author was simply confused that a Barque, a type of sailing vessel, is a type of ship, while a cutter is more of a "job", or role, a ship does.

See: https://www.uscga.edu/about-eagle/

"At the close of the [second world] war, the ship was taken as a war reparation by the U.S., re-commissioned as the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Eagle and sailed to New London, Connecticut, which has been her permanent homeport ever since."

and

"The USCGC Eagle is a 295-foot, three-masted barque used as a training vessel for future officers of the United States Coast Guard. Known as "America's Tall Ship," the majestic Eagle is the largest tall ship flying the Stars and Stripes and the only active square-rigger in U.S. government service."

I don't think it can get clearer than that. Nowhere in any of the provided sources or anything I could find support the claim that the USCG refers to it as USCGC "for consistency".

I don't see the point in mentioning a single vessel that already has its own page in a way that contradicts said page, either.

If others feel I overstepped and shouldn't have reverted, let me know why if you don't mind, I'm relatively new and want to learn.

Chemputer (talk) 16:49, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

A barque is a sailing vessel with a certain configuration of sails. A cutter is a different type of sailing vessel of a certain configuration of sails. The difference between a barque and a cutter is similar to the difference between a minivan and a coupe; it has nothing to do with their role, but rather with their design and layout.

The U.S. Coast Guard is historically descended from the U.S. Revenue Cutter Service which, at their inception, used cutters as their vessel of choice due in large part to the design's fast speed. When the Revenue Cutter Service began acquiring ships that weren't cutters, the new were called "Revenue Cutters" since they belonged to the Revenue Cutter Service. Throughout the 19th century the vessels of the USRCS continued to be referred to as "Revenue cutters" despite their fleet including numerous schooners as well as barques, barkentines, sloops, and at least one brigantine. When the Revenue Cutter Service became the U.S. Coast Guard in 1915, the USCG continued to use the term cutter which caused little confusion since the service had been purchasing steam-powered ships for decades and sailing vessels were increasingly rare in naval service. This is akin to calling a movie a "film" despite the fact that theatrical movies are now recorded digitally and haven't been shot on film in quite some time. At the time when the Horst Wessel was acquired by the U.S. Coast Guard and renamed the Eagle, this created a minor issue as all Coast Guard vessels had been termed cutter (after the type of sailing vessel) but the Eagle was a barque, a completely different type of sailing vessel than a cutter. This was the first, and only, sailing vessel acquired by the U.S. Coast Guard after shedding its "Revenue Cutter Service" identity. So while "cutter" would have been the appropriate term after WWII for a newly acquired USCG ship since all of the Coast Guard's fleet of full-sized powered vessels were all called cutters, the Eagle (as a barque) did not meet the historical definition of a cutter.

That would be like a company saying it owns a large fleet of trucks including Chevy Silverados, Ram 2500's, Ford F-150s, and one Ford Transit. Technically, that would be incorrect since a Ford Transit is a van and not a truck, however for the sake of consistency it's easier to say they own "a large fleet of trucks" as opposed to "a large fleet of trucks and one van."

This point is illustrated by an old movie of a little girl raised by a sailor. When she was being evaluated by the state to determine whether or not the sailor was competent to be her caregiver, the test proctor showed her pictures of several objects including houses, locomotives, and a handful of sailing vessels. The proctor asked the girl how many of these pictures were of "sailboats." The girl said zero, which led the proctor to believe her to be grossly uneducated. However, she later added something to the effect that none of the pictures were of sailboats, however one was of a brigantine, one was of a cutter, two were barques, one was a frigate, and one appeared to be a Chinese junk.

Klausdog (talk) 23:57, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

While, sure, that may have been the definition that it started out as for a cutter, it is now clearly defined by the USCG as "The term “cutter” identifies a Coast Guard vessel 65 feet in length or greater, with accommodations for a crew to live aboard.", which is directly from the USCG itself and that same page also lists the number of cutters they have, and it mentions 1 training cutter, which would be the Barque Eagle.

Here's the issue that I see, as we've got multiple articles on Wikipedia that reference the US Coast Guard, US Coast Guard Cutters, and the USCG Barque Eagle that all contradict what you were trying to say, so many pages would have to be changed, or else the site would be inconsistent. The fact of the matter is that the Barque Eagle is a training cutter, it's also a Barque, any vessels starting with the hull classification W, are, by definition, Coast Guard Cutters, they use that for anything that meets their definition, which I listed above. Vessels that don't meet that definition are given different hull classification symbols that don't start with a W, such as the Aircraft and Boats in USCG service, MLB is a Motor Life Boat, for instance. Given that USCGC Barque Eagle is WIX-327, it is commissioned as a US Coast Guard Cutter. (Interestingly, I'm fairly sure that the IX means Miscellaneous Unclassified Vessel, and there doesn't seem to be a "training" vessel code, so I suppose that makes sense.) The USCG itself lists it in the Cutters in the Atlantic Area, as well as on a page that shows various types of vessels that the USCG uses and the datasheet page for the WIX-327 shows that it's the "... 7th in a long line of proud cutters that to bear the name..." which would only be said if it was a cutter itself. There is nothing official that lends credence to the idea that it is not a cutter. See the Eagle's own USCG page. If it weren't one, then they have commissioned and labeled a vessel as something it is not, which is not something you can exactly do.

It really doesn't matter what, historically, a cutter would've been, it matters what the USCG defines a "cutter" as today (and even when it was commissioned), and what they've classified the Barque Eagle as. When acquired, they commissioned it as a cutter. That commission has not changed. It quite clearly meets the definition of being a USCG vessel of 65ft or more, with accomodations for a crew to live aboard. It has a permanent crew who live aboard the ship. Additionally, the prefix USCGC is used only for those vessels who are classified by the USCG as a cutter.

Since they have a variety of ships that are significantly different from each other in size, role, armament, and capabilities, that are all classified as cutters, perhaps a more apt analogy would be to that of a cutter being roughly analogous of "warship" (I still think this is flawed, because the USCG set a hard and fast definition to follow, while it's not so with a warship, aside from being commissioned by the respective countries navy as one, but it's the best I can think of), when you've got a variety of different types of warships, Corvettes, Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers, etc. and many variations on those, but they're all commissioned warships. Even USS Constitution is still commissioned, with the classification being IX (again, Miscellaneous Unclassified Vessel) from 1941 to 1975, when it was given "no classification", despite still being commissioned as a warship in service of the USN, complete with a commander.

Honestly, I've looked, quite hard, and was unable to find anything about it not being a Cutter. The closest I got was an article mentioning it as a "US Coast Guard Vessel", rather than a USCG Cutter. The citations you provided, plus what I've found on my own, have made me learn a fair bit about the USCG, Cutters, among other things, and also made me pretty sure it's a cutter, as the USCG defines it, as there is loads of evidence indicating that, and nothing really refuting it. Given that the strongest, and most clear evidence is coming directly from the website of the USCG, I think that's pretty solid. As I obviously want to give you every benefit of the doubt and I fully believe you're acting in good faith here, I've tried proving myself wrong, and I can't find anything that can refute this idea or support what you claim.

Chemputer (talk) 01:53, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Look at the name of the ship and her hull classification: USCGC Eagle (WIX-327). USCGC stands for United States Coast Guard Cutter. It doesn't stand for United States Coast Guard Barque. By tradition, all Coast Guard vessels in commission with a length over 65 feet have been called cutters regardless of how they are powered. Even Eagle has machinery spaces. The term "cutter" is tradition, adopted from the Revenue Cutter Service, and in the Coast Guard certain traditions still mean something. Let's not throw confusion into an article by adopting something that isn't so. Eagle might have a barque configuration but it is a United States Coast Guard Cutter. Cuprum17 (talk) 13:11, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

minor issues

see 4 reverted edits on 9 July 2022. 158.181.83.72 (talk) 07:08, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

See WP:RS, WP:OR & WP:ES. - wolf 22:28, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

see Robert H. Smith-class destroyer

compare Admirable-class minesweeper to PCE-842-class patrol craft

i don't see no reference to sources on the description that i augmented. 158.181.83.72 (talk) 10:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not looking at any other pages, if you found problems with another article, that is not a reason to introduce the same problems here. Read the polices & guidelines linked above and go from there. - wolf 01:31, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

if you saw a boat with depth charges stacked on the deck next to minesweeping equipment, you wouldn't say that the primary purpose of the boat is to sweep mines. 158.181.83.72 (talk) 06:07, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

And if I saw a canoe with pints of strawberry ice-cream stacked on board being paddled by a guy in an astronaut suit... I would say let's not get bogged down with random analogies and again I would refer you to my first reply. If you want to make changes, ensure they are supported by reliable sources and, add a brief summary explaining your edits. And with that, I think we're done here. - wolf 14:03, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

you mean a source that they carried depth charges? a source that they didn't remove a single mine off the east coast of the united states or a source that speaks about what the primary purpose of a certain type of ship is? 158.181.83.72 (talk) 15:03, 11 July 2022 (UTC)