Talk:Francis Bellamy

Accuracy in intro?

I think that the author of those two utopian novels was Edward, the cousin of Francis. Certainly a few print resources and Edward's page agree with me. Thoughts? Everyday847 (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The article does attribute the novels to Edward. However, your confusion illustrates the dubious value of characterizing his cousin's novels on Francis's article. It smacks lightly of POV and it should perhaps be changed to "His cousin was novelist Edward Bellamy." Let the reader follow the links and come to their own conclusions about Edward's work. If they bore on Francis's work, it should be stated and referenced, not implied with superfluous adjectives. –BozoTheScary (talk) 22:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The Historian Rex Curry's criticisms

There are some regular writers on Wikipedia who knowingly engage in personal attacks and deletions (even of links) of anyone who explains the connection between Edward Bellamy and his cousin Francis Bellamy (author of the pledge of allegiance) and National Socialism. Some of the worst falsifiers on Wikipedia are Stormie, Lupo, and Matt Crypto. They spam screeds about their lies all over the place on Wikipedia and they have been warned. They were challenged to respond to the facts that they suppressed or to concede those fact, and they each conceded that the facts that they suppress are correct and that they delete those facts because they do not want Wikipedia readers to know the truth. They constantly spam their own point of view in their diatribes in which they try to cover up for Nazism. It is behavior that breaks Wikipedia's rules. What kind of people cover-up for Nazis and that horrid ideology?

<page or two of screed snipped>

So the key insight the anon offers us is that, several decades after Bellamy wrote the pledge, the Nazis adopted a form of salute similar to one that was used in the U.S. in Bellamy's time. The whole anonymous diatribe is sourced with multiple references to a single website, which also chastises Bellamy and his cousin "because they loved the War of Northern Aggression against southern independence" (what most people call the American Civil War). And the refusal to rewrite several articles in line with these views is proof positive of a cover-up. JamesMLane 11:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

JamesMLane's whole diatribe (above) has no sources at all, and he criticizes a website that shows actual historic photographs and references to original sources, including Francis Bellamy and Edward Bellamy, which JamesMLane covers up. In fact JamesMLane shows that he knows that Rex Curry is correct, and that is because Lane does not actually dispute the points made, because he cannot. JamesMLane also shows he knows almost nothing about the Bellamys, as Lane pretends that the topic only relates to a similar gesture. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rexcurrydotnet (talk • contribs) . 07:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Rex Curry is a loon who pops up every now and then to add links to his rant website to a small range of articles, and then accuse editors who revert his garbage of being apologists for some vast conspiracy. I'm not American and had never even heard of Francis Bellamy until I spotted this link-adding on recent changes and reverted it, but apparently that makes me some sort of worshipper of Bellamy and all his evil deeds. —Stormie 12:11, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Stormie is a loon who pops up every now and then to add his un-sourced comments to a small range of articles, and then accuse the historican Rex Curry who points out Stormie's garbage of the fact that Stormie is covering up for Nazism. Stormie then tries to hide the fact that he knows that Rex Curry is correct because Stormie never disputes a single fact mentioned, because Stormie cannot, and Stormie blabbers about "some vast conspiracy" in his effort to hide his own ignorance. Stormie admits his ignorance when he says that he "never even heard of Francis Bellamy until I spotted this link-adding on recent changes." Stormie then shows his venal misbehavior by confessing that he reverted the article, and blabbers about how "it but apparently that makes Stormie some sort of worshipper of Bellamy and all his evil deeds." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rexcurrydotnet (talk • contribs) . 07:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I had an email exchange with Rex Curry (the, er, self-proclaimed "familiar voice of freedom for millions"), asking him to stop spamming Wikipedia and my blog. (He's also started spamming blogs that my blog links to, despite the fact they aren't Wikipedians. Nice.) Anyway, his only response was to take my emails and -- here's the genius part -- replace his name with my own, similar to his reply to Stormie above. I suppose Rex thinks that when he does this, he's done something very clever. Sadly, it's actually a debating style much favoured by schoolchildren: repeat back what someone's said to you in a mocking, "nah-nee-nah" voice. Amusing, though, to see grown-ups do it. — Matt Crypto 10:35, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Bellamy and NEA?

Current text: "The Pledge was published in the September 8, 1892, issue of the magazine, and immediately put to use in the campaign. Bellamy used his position as the chairman of the state superintendents of education committee of the National Education Association to promote its use. As its chairman, he was responsible for the program to celebrate Columbus Day that year. He structured the program around a flag raising ceremony and his pledge."

My past readings on the history of the Pledge show that Bellamy was not affiliated with the National Education Association (NEA) in any way. In To the Flag: The Unlikely History of the Pledge of Allegiance (2005), Richard Ellis writes that the idea for holding a National Columbian Public School Celebration was *Upham's*, and "Ford agreed to have the Youth's Companion spearhead the planning and promotion of the celebration and appointed the newcomer Bellamy to head the effort." It was at this point that Bellamy went to speak to "a national meeting of school superintendents" to promote the celebration; the convention loved the idea and "selected a committee of leading educators to implement the program, including the immediate past president of the National Education Association. Bellamy, as the representative of the Youth's Companion, was selected as the chair. Having received the official blessing of educators, Bellamy now had the task of spreading the word across the nation and of designing an official program for schools to follow on the day of national celebration." That was in February 1892, and he later delivered a speech to the NEA on July 15, 1892 to promote the Columbus Day Celebration, which means that it had not yet been endorsed by the NEA. Bellamy wrote the Pledge later that summer and it was the last piece of the official program to be written, meaning that contrary to what this Wikipedia article is saying, Bellamy could not have "used his position as the chairman of the state superintendents of education committee of the National Education Association to promote its [the Pledge's] use."

For these reasons, I believe that the paragraph above from the current revision of this article is highly inaccurate and should be revised. I would appreciate some ideas on this issue. --Chopsticks 03:36, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Problem with article

From what I know about Bellamy, this article seems quite distorted. I thought he left the church and had a somewhat unhappy end. I thought there was a lot of controversy involved about his views and the pledge of allegiance. Comments?--Filll (talk) 16:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

For me and many others, what we know of Bellamy is by way of Rex Curry. While I suspect that there is a lot of truth in Curry's criticisms, he does not appear to be able to respectfully address opinions that don't support his viewpoint, which calls in to question his judgment and the quality of his scholarship on this subject. This is unfortunate from several perspectives. –BozoTheScary (talk) 21:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I am a little confused. In a part of the article, he says he left the church in Florida because of the racial bigotry in the church. Then at the end of the article, it has a quote reference #13, where he sounds very racist. I read the quote in the book that was referenced and she offers no date as to when the quote was made and I don't think she mentions when he stated it. So was he racist at the end of his life or at the beginning or was the quote taken out of context or what??Zachygirl (talk) 05:04, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Christian Socialism

I've added a reference to Francis Bellamy being a Christian Socialist as it seemed to be missing from the article, even though he is listed amongst Wikipedia's list of Christian Socialists. I added the citation from a source that was already linked to from this article as well as an external link to another article which reiterates that statement. I feel that it is as important to include this statement as it is to include the fact that he was a Baptist Minister as it is obvious that both roles contributed to his philosophy. Furthermore pretty much every other site I have visited looking for references for this article states that Bellamy was a Christian Socialist. To my mind it seems at the least revisionist to omit the reference.IrishPete (talk) 04:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Under God....

Given that Bellamy was a Christian Socialist, the fact that he did not include "under God" is remarkable and is missing from this article. It should be added, as should the circumstances and date of incorporation of "under God" into the pledge. Here's the section under "Pledge of Allegiance" that needs to be added or specifically cited within the body of this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22under_God.22.

Dstlascaux (talk) 04:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Bellamy's thoughts

The bit about why Bellamy chose the words he did is nice, but how about a citation? I quote:

"It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution... with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

"The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands'. ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

"Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity'. No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all..."

--MicahBrwn (talk) 16:54, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Political views potential copyvio

The "Political views" section looks to contain waaaaay too much material quoted verbatim from the source, comprising some 80% of the section. I am tagging it accordingly. 192.35.35.34 (talk) 05:09, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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New York Times Article on Francis Bellamy Not Authoring the Pledge of Allegiance

I guess Wikipedia does not think it worthy of mention that the New York Times had a full-page article (Apr. 2, 2022) presenting evidence, discovered by two very accomplished historical researchers, that Francis Bellamy could not be the author of the Pledge of Allegiance. 2601:192:80:99D0:B5E3:4F87:268D:E417 (talk) 12:02, 15 March 2023 (UTC)