Talk:Charles Stewart Parnell

Catholic Church & Divorce

The Catholic Church doesn't, and never has, held that divorce, in and of itself, is immoral, but that remarriage after a divorce is, as it is adultery. The Church holds that divorce is a purely secular and civil matter, solely dissolving the legal obligations a man and wife have to one another, but leaving unaffected their spiritual union. This is why I have edited the entry to read that remarriage after divorce contravenes Church law, instead of simply divorce itself.

Edit and rating

Have just contributed quite an amount of time reshaping and expanding the whole article with references (from top to his death), also included some important statements he made (in place of considerable insignificant wording throughout). I feel it could be upped to GA rating when the end section is tidied ? Hope at least it now meets with approval. Osioni (talk) 20:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Closing sections: Personal politice and Overall assessment I have since also attempted to enhance where appropriate Osioni (talk) 19:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

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This article sucks on my donkey nuts. It needs (badly) to be edited and cleaned up, which I would do if I had any real amount of time. But the syntax and structure, nevermind punctuation use, are horrific. Scath.agus.ceo 12:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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I think this article needs more detail as it doesn't really cover enough of his Home Rule Campaign and the Land War.

--TD 10:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

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Thanks, Deb, I've been meaning to get around to doing Parnell at some stage, but there is much Irish stuff to be filled in. (Some day I'll get around to switching off Wikipedia and finishing my own book. I guess I've become a bit of a Wikiholic!) JTD 06:05 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)

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Ecclesiastes

Ecclesiastes 12:12 - "And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."

But what is "varity", and is the "war of 1812" the British-American War or Napoleon's rather larger scale (though possibly not as long run significant) war against Russia? PML.

Did the US Congress award many medals of honour to people who fought in the Napoleonic war of 1812? Then I guess it must have been the British-American War, then. STÓD/ÉÍRE 23:39 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

Quite - but, not something that is necessarily clear to everybody in all contexts, over and above this instance here. The term "war of 1812", used to refer to that war, is not only America-centric but actually refers to a lesser war than others of that date! So I feel that we need some more self-explanatory term that doesn't rest so heavily on context and background that not everybody will have. (The US Congress, by the bye, has been known to take a stand on matters completely outside its purview before.) PML.

I linked it to War of 1812, which, like it or not, refers exclusively to the American one. Not even a "see also". :-\ But it should certainly clear that up, for anyone who wonders. -- John Owens 23:49 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

Constituency

In Rayment's list of UK constituencies Parnell is listed as a member for Cork City for 1880-1891, is this correct?

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography writes:

The announcement of the general election of April 1880 brought Parnell's labours in America to an abrupt end. He hurried home. Overall the election saw the triumph of Gladstone's Liberal Party over the Conservative government. Parnell achieved the personal triumph of being returned for three seats in Cork, Mayo, and Meath. He chose to sit for the Cork seat.

It doesn't say specifically that he retained the same constituency in the 1885 and 1886 elections, but it generally notes constituency changes, so I think it likely that it would report it if he changed constituenfcies. john k 11:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Party divides

In this section there is a link to an article about the Kingdom of Meath. I was just wondering what the significance of this was? -- Paddyman1989 22:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

"..religious wing of the Liberal Party" - sorry, no such thing / deleting. Divorce and adultery were social crimes in 1890, whether we like it or not.Red Hurley 15:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Minor point- Link from obstructionism?

There is currently a "broken" wikilink from obstructionism- but I am not convinced that obstructionism is worthy of its own article. Could it be linked to a wiktionary definition? Phil 10:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Early Life

I've read that Parnell was educated in England before going to Cambridge. Is this true? Does anyone have any details? Bill Tegner 10:37, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

family relationships

Was he related to Lord Congleton? john k 19:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CBI - SERIES C - HUNDRED POUND NOTE.PNG

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oh where is my blackbird of sweet avondale —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.180.109 (talk) 21:22, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Ivy Day

Isn't the day of his death sometimes remembered as "Ivy Day"? (F.ex. see here) Shouldn't this be mentioned somewhere in the Article? (By someone more knowledgable about the subject than me...) --BjKa 10:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Adultery as well...

"The Catholic Church hierarchy in Ireland was largely silent, some bishops explicitly declaring the issue to be purely political [3] , though divorce is forbidden under Catholic doctrine and most of Parnell's supporters were members of the Catholic Church. As co-respondent, Parnell was legally the apparent cause of the divorce, so that it was rather the ‘nonconformist conscience’ in England which openly rebelled against him [3]"

Yes, but... that leaves out adultery, one of the Ten Commandments. We may not think much of it today but adultery and divorce combined were unacceptable around 1890; unless you could arrange things out of the public eye, which Parnell knew. An excellent article otherwise. Could have added his membership of the IRB from 1882 perhaps.86.42.207.82 (talk) 16:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Divorce crisis

NOTE: The above is pretty typical of the sort of ignorant misinformation that so often now passes for "history". "Kitty" is not a derogatory name - Kitty Pakenham, for example, the Duke of Wellington's perfectly respectable wife, was often called Kitty. The Catholic Church is NOT opposed to divorce but only to remarriage whilst a spouse is still living. In any case, many of Parnell's supporters were Protestant, as he was himself. Irish Nationalism began as an Ulster Protestant movement and almost all of the original Society of United Irishmen were Protestants. Furthermore, it was not just the Non-conformist conscience that "rebelled against him" - Anglicans and Catholics also were unhappy with the facts of his affair with Mrs O'Shea. Moreover, Gladstone was certainly not a Non-conformist but an Anglican High Churchman of the Tractarian school. Those with an axe to grind should not attempt to write Irish history. They nearly always get it wrong. Irish history simply does not fit into neat, media-friendly, categories. Get used to it. - Added to mainspace below The Divorce crisis section by User:91.104.123.103 - moving so it can be discussed here. Snappy (talk) 16:43, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Protestant

Is it really necessary to include in the first line that he was protestant? Can he not just be fully accepted as being Irish, full stop? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.240.223 (talk) 23:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Fully agree. It is particularlly ironic in the case of Parnell to say "Charles Stewart Parnell[1] (27 June 1846 – 6 October 1891) was an Irish Anglican landowner" given that his quest was for home rule for all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.160.5.251 (talk) 13:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Protestant

Is it really necessary to include in the first line that he was protestant? Can he not just be fully accepted as being Irish, full stop? surely the first line should include basic essential information, nationality being one of them? maybe his religious affiliation would be better suited in the main body of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.240.223 (talk) 23:28, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Religion is an integral part of Irish history, particularly at the time. SGGH ^ping! 12:23, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

It is most significant that he was from the Protestant ascendancy, rebelling against his own class, and not part of the wider catholic-protestant clash. Valetude (talk) 12:19, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Lead

I have added some more to the lead, primarily to include that "revelations of his private life" hampered the IPP. I have left it very unspecific as it is the lead, and also because I suspect listing the issues he had to deal with in the lead would be inducing undue weight on the topic. SGGH ^ping! 12:23, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Charles Stewart Parnell/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk) 16:53, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   Family background: Suggest you adjust to link to Avondale House, the birthplace.

   ... so had a distant relationship with the British Royal Family; ... and distantly connected to the Royal Family. Repetition of detail.

   ... and as a boy he was sent to different schools in England; clumsy, suggest you drop different.

   New Paradigm: This was followed by a telegram from John Devoy in October 1878 which offered Parnell a "New Departure" deal of separating militancy from the constitutional movement as a path to all-Ireland self-government, under certain conditions: abandonment of a federal solution in favour of separatist self-government, vigorous agitation in the land question on the basis of peasant proprietorship, exclusion of all sectarian issues, collective voting by party members and energetic resistance to coercive legislation Can we break up long sentences like this?

   Parnell preferred to keep all options open without clearly committing himself when he spoke in 1879 before Irish Tenant Defence Associations at Ballinasloe and Tralee. Simpler would be something like: When addressing Irish Tenant Defence Associations at Ballinasloe and Tralee in 1879, Parnell preferred to keep all options open without clearly committing himself.

   At a national level several approaches were made which eventually produced the 'New Departure' of June 1879, endorsing the foregone informal agreement which asserted an understanding binding them to mutual support and a shared political agenda.; clumsy and verging on unclear.

   During Parnell’s highly successful tour, he had an audience with American President Rutherford B. Hayes, on 2 February 1880 he addressed the House of Representatives on the state of Ireland and spoke in sixty-two cities including in Canada, where he was so well received in Toronto that Healy dubbed him "the uncrowned king of Ireland"; again somewhat clumsy.

   Land League leader: His activities came to an abrupt end when the United Kingdom general election, 1880 was announced for April and he returned to fight it.; which activities? Do you mean the American tour? If so, then say so.

   Parnell saw the need to replace violent agitation with country-wide mass meetings and the application of Davitt’s boycott, also as a means of achieving his objective of self-government. Somewhat confused sentence.

   Party restructured: Parnell was shocked to the extent that he offered Gladstone to resign his seat as MP. Poor grammar.

   At the end of 1885, the highly centralised organisation had 1,200 branches spread around the country, though less in Ulster., again poor grammar.

   Portrayal in fiction: This section is a bulleted list, use of which is discouraged by WP:MOS.

   Overall: I have not cited every clumsy grammar construction as there are so many. I would like to see a thorough copy-edit of the prose, which at times is almost impenetrable. I am not asking for the article to be dumbed down, but at present it is hard to read with overly convoluted sentences, sometimes changing subject half-way through and poor phrasing. Good, clear English should be the aim. I shall look at this again when it has been copy-edited.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

I am going to put this on hold until it has been thoroughly copy-edited. I will allow 14 days for this as we are appproaching Christmas. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

There has been no response from the nominator so I will fail this nomination. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Independence

I don't think Parnell wanted Ireland to separate from the empire. The article seems to suggest that he did in the section where it talks about if all-Ireland independence might have happened. --RJR3333 (talk) 05:42, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Superstitions

Would it be ok to add to the article the fact that Parnell had some strange superstitions, including a hatred of the color green and the number thirteen. --RJR3333 (talk) 16:23, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Protestant Irish Nationalist

Proposing removal from the category Protestant Irish Nationalist for the following reason. - Category:Protestant_Irish_nationalists is both in description and by examination of the categories for which it is a subcategory only for Protestants from Northern Ireland. While Parnell might fit within the plain reading of a Protestant Irish Nationalist, it doesn't seem as if the category is designed to accommodate him. Alternative is to redefine the category. Homagetocatalonia (talk) 15:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Chipping Norton

Did he attend school in Chipping Norton? Is there any source? He currently appears in "Notable people" at that article, but a source is needed. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:12, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Disputed relationship to the British Royal Family

Just for the record. The assertion of a relationship with the British Royal family via Parnell's great grandmother whose surname was 'Tudor' is complete and utter rubbish. The English Tudor kings and queens have no descendants in the the male line. And no known male line relatives. The fact that a person has a particular surname no matter how rare or unusual does not constitute evidence of relationship with other persons or families of the same surname. I do not care if this nonsense is referenced. I am not going to alter the main page. This is just for the record. John2o2o2o (talk) 12:28, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

The surname 'Tudor' is Welsh, and like all genuine Welsh surnames is derived from a Welsh forename. In this case Tewdwr. In the same way that for example, all persons surnamed Griffiths are not descended from one man named Griffith, it cannot be asserted that all persons surnamed 'Tudor' are descended from one man named 'Tewdwr'. Of course, the idea of connections to the Tudor Royal family may be very attractive for some individuals and some individuals may therefore lay claim to a connection, but in this case there is no hard evidence to support anyone's claim of kinship to the Tudor Royal Family. John2o2o2o (talk) 12:52, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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"Charles Parnell" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Charles Parnell has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 1 § Charles Parnell until a consensus is reached. Estar8806 (talk) 03:31, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Relationship to British Royal families

If you go back to Stewarts and Tudors, millions of people are distant relatives. 88.97.108.45 (talk) 11:36, 30 March 2024 (UTC)