Talk:Right-wing politics

See Also section

Under the see also section, structural functionalism is listed. The article on structural functionalism directly says: "It is simplistic to equate the perspective directly with political conservatism" and cites a source; following this quote it states conflict theory can be seen as having a left-wing bent. I think either a removal or a further explanation in this article about how functionalism directly relates to right wing politics would be helpful. CalorusRex (talk) 00:26, 15 October 2017

Claim that America leans Centre-Right

You can not claims that America leans centre right when the polling shows a majority of Americans identify as moderate or liberal. According to Gallup, Democrats are more likely to identify as moderate than Republicans.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 104dragon (talk • contribs)

American terminology is somewhat skewed in a way that erases the left almost completely. The USA has two main parties, Democrats (centrist to centre right) and Republicans (centre right to hard right). As that article says, "Conservatives, Moderates Tie". That is a centre-right lean over all. The moderates and liberals you speak of can be anything from centre-left to centre-right depending on what they think those words mean but, most often, "moderate" means centre-right in America. Given that America is the quintessential Capitalist hegemony, with discourse centred on how capitalism should be conducted rather then whether it is desirable in itself, that is a centre-right situation and that Gallup poll shows exactly that. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:15, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Wikipedia is a global encyclopaedia. By global standards, I would suggest the USA is more to the right than centre right. What Americans think is not really important. Americans make up less than 5% of the world's population. HiLo48 (talk) 18:13, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

The US had made a dramatic political shift after the Bush administration. The right lost the culture wars, and the progressive left has achieved dominance in academia and large parts of the media. Many more Americans are now skeptical of capitalism, imperialism, patriotism, American exceptionalism, traditional family values, meritocracy, law and order. Some traditionally left-wing positions (freedom of speech, freedom of self-expression) are now considered conservative or even right-wing by the left. DarthBarth (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

That is subjective to say the you think the moderates and liberals lean centre right without evidence even if I personally agree, therefore it should not be stated as a matter of fact based on the evidence cited in the article, which does not point to that conclusion. This poll is about how people identify, not how other people characterize them. The only way you could point to this conclusion as a matter of fact is if you were to find a poll that placed an ideological score on each person in the poll and found the average score was in centre-right territory 104dragon (talk) 20:34, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I equate "moderates" as being the "centre", which is why I think calling it a center-right lean is appropriate, based on the polling data given, especially when more people identify as conservative than as liberal. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:55, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

We discussed the country information before and it was agreed to remove them. In every country, politics can be divided into a left and a right. That doesn't mean that the right in one country has anything in common with the right in another. The term right-wing is defined as opposition to the left, but how strong this opposition must be to be considered right-wing changes depending on context. For example, all major parties in the UK are centrist, the Tories are a center right party, the Tories formed a center-right coalition with the Lib Dems (where the Tories are right and the Lib Dems are centrist.

So in this discussion, all editors are correct. The problem is that it is correct to call the Republicans right wing, center right or centrist depending on context. But without context, the terms are meaningless.

Note that while there are books such as The Left In History and Forging Democracy: The History of the Left in Europe, 1850-2000, there is nothing for the Right. Instead, there are books about the specific ideologies of the Right: liberalism, conservatism, fascism, Christian democracy and sub-groups such as Nazism, neo-liberalism, right-wing populism, etc.

I suggest we re-remove this.

TFD (talk) 14:46, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

"Democrats (centrist to centre right)" The main article on centre-right politics lists associated political ideologies: Liberal conservatism, Christian democracy, economic liberalism, neoliberalism, cultural liberalism, and green conservatism. Dimadick (talk) 14:15, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

And of course the main article has no sources for this and is original research. Center right is contextually defined, similar to the expression "fairly tall." Americans tend to be fairly tall. Basketball players tend to be fairly tall. Both statements are correct because what the speaker means by fairly tall is clear from context, although what is fairly tall differs in the two statements. On its own without context the expression is meaningless. I hope that no one decides to create an article "Fairly tall" with separate sections about Americans and basketball players. TFD (talk) 15:15, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Americans have a tendency to support more left-wing economic ideas, but at the same time view themselves as moderate or conservative.104dragon (talk) 16:58, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

104dragon continues to use these pages as if they were intended for discussion, like Facebook pages. This is an encyclopedia, and publishes referenced material. Rick Norwood (talk) 20:57, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

This is a talk page to discuss. The referenced material does not point to the conclusion claimed in the article.104dragon (talk) 21:23, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

References

As the person who initially typed out the paragraph at issue, I would just like to point out that calling the US in 2019 center right was not my characterization of the data, but rather it was the characterization that the gallup news article used as a reference. Quoting from the article, "[I]n 2019, the ideological balance of the country remained center-right, with 37% of Americans, on average, identifying as conservative during the year, 35% as moderate and 24% as liberal." This is an encyclopedia; we go with what our sources say, generally speaking. We don't make up new non-obvious characterizations of raw data, as that would come dangerously close to WP:OR. While I certainly respect 104dragon for trying to make the article better, the source is clear here: The US in 2019 leaned center right because 37% of Americans self identified as conservative, 35% moderate, and 24% liberal. That's not because I'm saying it; that's because the author of the article was saying it.JMM12345 (talk) 19:16, 16 February 2022 (UTC)JMM12345

First, it's self-identification which is not necessarily what they really are. Second, the conclusions are questionable. Another analyst would say that 37% were center right to far right, 35% were centrist and 24% were left of center. What percentage of self-described conservatives are far right as opposed to center right?

Furthermore, it has little or no relevance to this article. You would have to show that this is a significant observation made in the literature about right-wing politics.

TFD (talk) 19:33, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

I would first say that I think that you're correct that self-identification is not necessarily what people really are, however the source cited thinks that it can draw a general conclusion based on that self identification polling data. Furthermore it seems to be a very reasonable conclusion based on the data. If a plurality of a data set consider themselves to be conservative and the second most people consider themselves moderate, with self-identifying liberals trailing way behind the other two groups, I would think that calling the data set center-right would be the obvious conclusion to come to (even if there may be a slight difference between self identifications and reality). Anyway, the way the Wikipedia article currently stands, we have provided the underlying data and the conclusion that the source came to. We have not provided the conclusion that Wikipedia editors think that another source might hypothetically come to. If another analyst actually does characterize the data differently, I would encourage you to cite to the other analyst.

Secondly, I think it is relevant to the article. This portion of the article is specifically about right wing politics in the United States, so a source characterizing how right wing the US is seems to me to be a very relevant. But in any event, if there is a dispute about relevance of this information, that would seem to me to be a different discussion entirely to whether "You can not claims that America leans centre right when the polling shows a majority of Americans identify as moderate or liberal.", which is what 104dragon started this discussion by saying.JMM12345 (talk) 22:39, 16 February 2022 (UTC)JMM12345

It is interesting that between the article reporting on 2019[1] and 2021[2] results, the writer dropped the term-center right, although the results barely changed. The writer probably thought better of it after reflection.

The problem here is that you have a source that is obviously reliable for polling but not for determining whether the results mean that the U.S. is majority center right. You would need a source that says something like, "there is a consensus among political scientists that the U.S. is a center-right nation," before we stated it as fact. Also, her first article is ambiguous. Center right can mean either a position between between center and right, the left of the right, the right of the center or a combination of the center and right. It is possible that the writer meant the second. IOW, Americans identify as right or center, if we define right as conservative and center as moderate.

TFD (talk) 23:34, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that changing which group is the plurality is barely changing the percentages (even if the absolute change in values is small) for the purpose of offering analysis of data, and I also wouldn't say that changing the words used to analyze the numbers as those numbers change necessarily the same as reflecting on earlier writing analyzing different numbers and thinking better of it. Especially considering the fact that the 2019 article is still up and seemingly unchanged. Now, If you think that we should add another sentence or two going into the 2021 article, providing more context, I would support that.

Secondly, the words in the article right now is not nearly as strong as stating that the US is a center-right nation. I agree that had I said that, I would probably need some academic papers describing it. I would have been going way beyond my source. That's not what is written though. I merely said in one specific year, the the United States populace leaned center-right based on polling data, and that that was following a trend. Much less strong language, and much more supported by the source at hand. Anyway, if there is a group consisting mostly of centrists and right wing people, I would describe the overall makeup of the group as being center-right, so when you say the article is ambiguous, I'm not sure that the ambiguity, to the extent that there is any, really matters. JMM12345 (talk) 00:04, 17 February 2022 (UTC)JMM12345

Proposition : Putting the Estatesgeneral.jpg image on top of the article.

As it stands, a specific poster from early 20th-century United Kingdom is a way too specific image to illustrate this subject on top of the article, and it date more than a century after the original use of the term.

5 May 1789 opening of the Estates General of 1789 in Versailles

— Preceding unsigned comment added by BookNotion (talk • contribs) 19:03, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

• The image shows a hall full of people. I don't see the point. Drmies (talk) 18:08, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

And the term wasn't used until the 20th century. TFD (talk) 19:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Why is social/cultural liberalism listed as right-wing?

Many people who identify as social/cultural liberals would object to being counted as right wing. Since the conception of left/right, social liberalism was usually a leftist project.

The political compass suggests splitting the political spectrum into an egalitarian (leftist) vs. economic liberal (rightist) dimension vs. an authoritarian/social liberal dimension. This reflects that eg. nazism is generally considered right wing and authoritarian, Soviet Union style communism is left wing and authoritarian. DarthBarth (talk) 07:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

The article does not mention social/cultural liberalism. It does mention "liberal conservatives" who stress small government and free markets, but that is very different from social or cultural liberalism. Rick Norwood (talk) 10:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Christer Pursainen due?

We have a single paper presenting a WP:FRINGE view of the politics of the CPC hinged off a single book by a minor academic. h-index - 9 - doesn't indicate he's particularly influential in his field. I didn't delete this when I did my first pass on the China stuff because I was more focused on the failed verifications but now I'm asking: does anybody think this is due a specific pullout? Simonm223 (talk) 12:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)