Talk:Qara Khitai

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Untitled

previous contents blanked for reasons of meaninglessness.

Move?

I think this article should be moved to the Kara-Khitai empire, or similar variants. Their administration was primarily imperial, mixed with some Central Asian practices. Khanate doesn't really describe the empire that well--Confuzion 23:47, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would find Western Liao preferable -- and I don't believe doing so would be Sinocentric. The reason is that there is no real evidence that the state ever referred to itself as Kara-Khitan. --Nlu (talk) 02:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The term Kara-Khitai is likely a post-historical invention, at least in reference to the specific state. The state never referred to itself as Kara-Khitai or Kara-Khitan, as recorded in any official documents from contemporary sources. The term Kara-Khitai came into popular use after the Mongol conquest, and was probably later adopted by Muslims to differentiate it from Khitai/Khitay, since the meaning of Khitai/Khitay had shifted over time to mean northern China. There is only one reference to the term "Kara Khitai" in any historical documents. The document, discovered by archaeologists, is attributed to the Liao Dynasty and is written in the Khitan small script. It's unclear if Kara Khitai was used to refer to the state or to the people.

Calling the state a Khanate is incorrect for many reasons, so moving it to anything else would be an improvement. Since the Khitan of Western Liao did not adopt Islam, the modern Central Asian states have tended to ignore their history; most research on their history have been conducted by the Chinese, thus the inevitable Western backlash against Sino-centrism when it comes to such topics. I agree that Western Liao is the clearest term for naming this state, since they were initially known as the Western Liao (from the Chinese), the Dashi (from the Jurchens) or Khitay/Khitai (from the Persians/Arabs). For whatever reasons, Chinese historians had traditionally considered the state to be a proper Chinese state, probably due to its adoption of Confucianism in government, among other things.--Confuzion 04:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is called Kara-Kitad in the Secret History of the Mongols. So it's no invention. Where is the evidence that they called themselves "Western Liao"? The ruler of Kara-Kitai was called had the title of Gur-khan, meaning Khan of a great power. Perhaps this is an equivalent to an emperor. Gantuya eng 09:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kara Khitan

The term "Kara" is a Turkish word meaning "black", as in Kara Kum Desert (literally Black Sand). Historically, Kara has been used to denote Turkic People who are not from the ruling class. The term Kara might have been added later to describe Khitans under Turkic or Uighur rule. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.247.198.111 (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Xara in daur language means black, Khar in mongolian means black, Qara in kyrgyz means black.--158.181.183.61 (talk) 02:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Qara-Khitan Khanate ?

"Qara-Khitan Khanate" 0

Takabeg (talk) 17:25, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That would be why I moved it back. siafu (talk) 17:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That was my mistake that didn't pay attention to it. I just thought to the latinization of the letter ق. sorry. --Aliwiki (talk) 08:03, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mohem nist. We also know the letter ق is transliterated into q. But WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH is kheili mohem : )) Takabeg (talk) 10:24, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-XBSD200206030.htm

http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-XYYJ200404006.htm

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=Pd80dn6A8XAC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=yelu+dashi&ots=yKYI_ymH1O&sig=5JjH7Q4aAysCH7DRd8B0xrSUPO0#v=onepage&q=yelu%20dashi&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=7f9gS40A_3IC&oi=fnd&pg=PA257&dq=yelu+dashi&ots=d_XQmSb6GM&sig=hlEPkgWhri-cs4Qe108rwNy-FBQ#v=onepage&q=yelu%20dashi&f=false

http://jis.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/3/379.short

http://jis.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2006/07/16/jis.etl035.full.pdf

http://asiecentrale.revues.org/index619.html

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=7f9gS40A_3IC&oi=fnd&pg=PA257&dq=yelu+dashi+islam&ots=d_XQmSb7IU&sig=4lVRm-RHofnY1UyjF06xg6f9I_I#v=onepage&q=yelu%20dashi%20islam&f=false

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=B9A0B19ADD810B5E6844C3182E4984AB.journals?fromPage=online&aid=5573124

http://jis.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/3/379.short

http://www.turuz.info/Turkoloji-Tarix/430-Mongols,%20Turks,%20And%20Others%20-Eurasian%20Nomads%20And%20The%20Sedentary%20World%20(Reuven%20Amitai%20And%20Michal%20Biran)%20(Brill-2005).pdf#page=195

coins

http://www.academia.edu/5544924/The_coinage_of_Qara_Khitay_a_new_evidence_on_the_reign_title_of_the_Western_Liao_Emperor_Yelu_Yilie_

http://books.google.com/books?id=8FVsWq31MtMC&pg=PA41#v=onepage&q&f=false

Title as Emperor of China

http://books.google.com/books?id=8FVsWq31MtMC&pg=PA42#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 06:55, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pusuwan

http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA162&dq=Pusuwan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BqkQUbvJL-bG0AH61YGYBA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Pusuwan&f=false

Put primary sources into wikisource

http://books.google.com/books?id=Iq0IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA283&dq=Pusuwan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0KwQUbfFCOHU0gH1_ICQCw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Pusuwan&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=n_8AAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA283&dq=Pusuwan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0KwQUbfFCOHU0gH1_ICQCw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Pusuwan&f=false

In german

http://books.google.com/books?id=gcwOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA186&dq=Pusuwan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0KwQUbfFCOHU0gH1_ICQCw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Pusuwan&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 06:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese was the dominant language both administratively and as the language with the most native speakers in the Kara Khitan

Chinese language was dominant in both areas.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LbmP_1KIQ_8C&pg=PA114#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.academia.edu/3806884/Michal_Biran._Khitan_Migrations_in_Inner_Asia_Central_Eurasian_Studies_3_2012_85-108

http://cces.snu.ac.kr/article/jces3_4biran.pdf

Chinese people

http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA27#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA146#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA96&dq=Han'er+Khitan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uU8qVPHNBNP-yQSuuYHwCA&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Han'er%20Khitan&f=false

Chinese prestige

http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA97#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA98#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA99#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=B934LaVBaz8C&pg=PA102#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Kara-Khitans also reintroduced the Chinese system of Imperial government, since China was still held in respect and esteem in the region among even the Muslim population,Biran 2012, p. 90.Biran 2012, p. 90. and the Kara-Khitans used Chinese as their main official language.Pozzi & Janhunen & Weiers 2006, p. 114.

coins

http://www.academia.edu/5544924/The_coinage_of_Qara_Khitay_a_new_evidence_on_the_reign_title_of_the_Western_Liao_Emperor_Yelu_Yilie_

http://books.google.com/books?id=8FVsWq31MtMC&pg=PA41#v=onepage&q&f=false

Title as Emperor of China

http://books.google.com/books?id=8FVsWq31MtMC&pg=PA42#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 04:05, 28 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Qara Khitai. Jenks24 (talk) 13:48, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kara-Khitan Khanate → Qara Khitai or Qara-Khitai – Qara Khitai is the most commonly used name (WP:COMMONNAME) in English language sources:

Qara Khitai: 700 Google Books results
Kara Khitai: 551 Google Books results
Western Liao: 467 Google Books results
Xi Liao: 200 Google Books results
Kara Khitan: 200 Google Books results
Kara Khitan Khanate: 30 Google Books results (excluding printed versions of Wikipedia articles). Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:48, 10 July 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 06:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC) Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 11:22, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In principle support, but for now prefer Kara Khitai. Very close but it seems that this variant is and has been the most common over the decades, per Google Ngrams of English-language sources, although as mentioned in another discussion above, "ق" in the Arabic-Persian alphabet corresponds to the Latin letter "q" rather than "k". Either way, the word "Khanate" needs to go, see Talk:Kara-Khitan Khanate#Move? above. Timmyshin (talk) 16:24, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to "Qara Khitai" per nom. Khestwol (talk) 15:42, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 14 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain ^t/c 18:39, 31 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Qara Khitai → Western Liao – Considering the official name of this regime was "Great Liao", I believe it is more accurate to refer to it as "Western Liao". The term "Qara Khitai" was not used by the rulers to refer to their regime, but is instead a term of foreign origins. Furthermore, since the rulers and the regime itself were Sinicized, accepted Chinese traditions, adopted Chinese titles and claimed continuity from the previous Liao dynasty, among other things, using the term "Western Liao" to refer to this regime (as is the case for Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese and Japanese historians) is more accurate. This is not Sinocentrism, considering the official name of the regime was "Great Liao" and was located to the west of the original Liao dynasty which also used the official name "Great Liao". The name "Western Liao" can therefore better reflect the historical connection between the two regimes as well as their geographical location in relation to each other, as opposed to "Qara Khitai" which neither reflect the official name of the regime nor was it used by the rulers themselves. Morrisonjohn022 (talk) 13:10, 14 May 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. DannyS712 (talk) 03:21, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I don't see a policy-based reason in the nominator's statement. The main English-language work is Biran's The Empire of the Qara Khitai in Eurasian History. Srnec (talk) 00:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Google Books results above, variants of the current title are more common. Am I missing something? — AjaxSmack 00:36, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. We don't go by official names, but the most common name in English, which is Qara Khitai. -Zanhe (talk) 08:59, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Khar khitan

Khar or khara is Turkic and Mongolic word meaning "black" and it is "black khitan" not "Qara" 202.9.46.99 (talk) 06:07, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]