Talk:Scott Speicher

Can we move this page to the right one?

I don't know how long this page has been here. Seems like quite awhile. Very long before his name recently popped up in the media. Anyway, about his name. It's Michael "Scott" Speicher. So shouldn't this page be Michael Spiecher (navy pilot) or something to that effect? -- (Mrja84 (talk) 03:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC))

Confusion

In the article "Bedouins were hunting in the desert when they found the parts of Spikes F/A-18 Superhornet. They mailed pictures to the US of the plane parts. They took a picture of the serial code of the plane and they found it as Speichers Jet."

According to wiki, the SUPER hornet did not fly till 1995, long after the event occured. I don't know what Spikes refers to... Is Spikes a person, as in Spikes' plane? Please fix it. tnx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.11.158.31 (talk) 08:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well to let you know, yes they messed up on the designation, but "Spike" was his call sign, so that's refering to CAPT Spiecher, a familiar term but what most people (officer's in the Navy to be precise) called him. --TXbrn LArasd (talk) 13:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

More Personal Bio

Don't you all think there should be more personal bio for him so people know who he was/is as a person. Just a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.242.174 (talk) 21:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes there really should be more about Scott, personally. I grew up with him as young kids in KC, MO. He was an excellent student; close schoolmates remember him rarely taking school work home through Jr High. I was on the swim team with him. He swam backstroke faster than any others swam any stroke. He was one of the funniest of all the friends in our group. He would have us all rolling with almost no effort and few words; it was all charisma and raw childhood inspiration (and silliness). Yet memorable enough to not fade after 40 yrs. He left KC North (Clay Co. MO) in his first year of high school; moved to FL and lived in Clay Co. Florida.

I think it is worth mentioning that another American POW captured and 'murdered' in Iraq lived only about 6 blocks from where Scott grew up in KC. This heroes name is very much worth mentioning for he has been overlooked in a very unique way. His name was SGT Donald Walters. He was a cook in Jessica Lynch's 507th. He was also a Gulf War I Veteran. He needs to be mentioned here because it was Donald that actually performed ALL the heroics originally attributed to Lynch. Providing cover fire, saving others' lives, isolated from his company, running out of amunition (a ton), fighting off his captors in hand to hand combat, stabbed in the abdomen and captured. And even though it took a year to get his silver star for saving lives of the 507th, the Oversight committee that recently covered the Lynch / Pat Tillman misinformation hearings and their report did NOT even mention him. The report conveniently concluded after all the facts about media misinformation on Lynch the committee still did not know why the military made up the lies and concocted such stories of heroism on her part. NONE of Donalds family was made aware by the military that he was EVER captured at all in Iraq for over a year after his remains were returned. They quietly gave his widow a POW medal.

(New Entry regarding previous unsigned) While I can see where the above is something that needs mentioning, I think it would be more appropriate to put it under a new page, either one created for Lynch, or essentially a memorial page for Walters, not here, not this page. Personal opinion here, but considering I met this man, and worked beside him sometimes (he was one of the LSO's and they worked out of my office on the Sara) this page is for him, and discussion's surrounding him. --TXbrn LArasd (talk) 14:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Please Compare Scott's case as a POW with other American Soldiers captured in Iraq

I have become very close with the other families of our American soldiers captured in Iraq since Scott with two exceptions. The remarkable note here is that in EVERY case their capture by enemy forces in an armed conflict was KNOWN FACT promoted by the military. Although their domestic casualty status was Missing/Captured their PR in almost all media was simply 'missing'. It bothers me that this ('missing') is (more accurately used) in the headlines and media references for AWOL soldiers i.e. before they turn themselves in. Yet each captured soldiers family received a POW medal immediately upon their remains being returned (with a 2nd exception of Joseph Anzack taking over a year).

Please check into some of the other captured American soldliers in Iraq. Keith Matthew Maupin, Alex Jimenez, Byron Fouty, Kristian Menchaca, Thomas Lowell Tucker,

Currently (May '09) other than Scott Speicher there is only one other soldier missing. He is an American. He was born in Iraq. His family became US Citizens and moved to MI. He VOLUNTEERED in the reserves and at the AGE OF 40 - he passed boot camp and became an interpreter. His name is Ahmed Qusai al-Taayie. His name should be known to many but no one (few) know of him or his story for the following reason/example.

Remember: Geneva convention states: It only takes one 'high contracting party' (signor) in an armed conflict to have the International LEGAL STATUS of "Prisoner of War". NOT TWO like you are told to believe by our gov't and the press.

Here is how the Pentagon's PRISONER OF WAR office (Public Affairs officer) described U.S. SGT Altaie to NPR's reporter Tom Bowman (ignoring or disqualifying 'Spike') QUOTE: the "ONLY soldier missing in Iraq" ..... is a Muslim American with family in Iraq... followed by a subversively suggestive inuendo"(some say...) * I refuse to reprint it all here. Keep in mind this had the effect of the reporter not even mentioning the 'only' missing soldier's name. The inuendo worked. I had to dig to deduce which hero was being left out of the statistic of TWO KNOWN CAPTURED US soldiers from the Pentagon (again). It was Scott. Source Tom Bowman (journalist) NPR.

The military claims we learned so many lessons from the botched case of CPT Scott Speicher and it is true. But look what else we learned and implemented!! Dissing HEROES currently missing known captured in foreign armed conflict.

This Public Affairs Officers Name is Larry Greer.

He's been quoted in many major articles of US Military personnel missing in Iraq which have eliminated Scott Speicher from the current statistics containing only a few captured soldiers at any time in Iraq.

He can be easily reached to confirm the above here: The Pentagon's POW office is officially called DPMO wiki LINK: [1] [2]

Larry Greers phone # 703-602-2102

But don't worry Larry. I doubt anyone (else) will call you out on this.

New Information on the Case

The AP reported that there is going to be a review board this Monday (1/5/09) on whether to officialy close the case and consider him KIA. THe family's attorney has stated they are not giving hope and don't feel the Navy has done enough. Read here http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090103/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/gulf_war_pilot_missing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.242.174 (talk) 21:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the info to the article. I hope no one minds. Im surprised this wasn't updated as soon as this piece came across the news wire. Anyway its there for anyone to add or edit. Its the section "New Hearing".

Divorce

I recently attended a US Army briefing called "High Risk of Isolation"; it's intended for pilots and aircrews who fly over hostile territory. Incidentally, I took the class at Scott's namesake -- Camp Speicher in Iraq. The instructor talked about Scott quite a bit. He mentioned that Scott's wife was granted a divorce in his absence, and she later married Scott's caseworker. I thought this was an interesting fact, but I could find no references. Are there references to be found? Polihale (talk) 03:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, she married Michael's best friend. How ironic. Oh well, at least he never found out about that.--Jason1960 (talk) 13:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I changed note 2 of the references since the text did not mention anything about the remarriage to Speicher's best friend and I replaced it with a link to newsite timeline that does menton it. --76.31.242.174 (talk) 16:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok I guess that bit of info about his wife's remarriage was deleted and so my correction was not needed anyway. --76.31.242.174 (talk) 00:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah it's every soldier's dream to die for his country, and his gal to marry his best friend... Where's the honor in that? You don't know if your husband's dead so you divorce HIM?!?!?!? Aren't we talking about making the ultimate sacrifice to protect ones county, and especially family? I have the upmost disrespect for that woman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.49.183.84 (talk) 17:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Seriously? How is it any of your concern? Do you know these people and their circumstances? I don't think wikipedia is the place for you to shoot off your mouth about people you don't know. His wife got on with her life. Nojamus (talk) 23:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

She might have decided that it was important for their kids to have a (step-)father in their lives. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

date of death

This is speculation, nobody knows. Probably 1/17 but could be 1/16 or 1/18 so let's say approx. 1/17 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Acme Plumbing (talk • contribs) 15:01, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

re: his remains being found

I don't mean to be all conspiracy theory and all, but the DOD's account makes it sound as if they JUST found out where the crash site was located... when it was actually discovered by hunters in the early 1990s. The local Bedouins and other local civilians were interviewed in 1995 or so, so why didn't they mention Speicher's remains then? (Because the Iraqi government wouldn't let them perhaps? Hmmm...)

Also, there is too much evidence to support his having survived the crash, i.e. "Speicher's E & E (Escape and Evade) sign left on the desert floor" and his flight suit being found away from the crash site. I dunno, it just all sounds so fishy to me...

The joint U.S. military's special operations community really felt let down by [now retired] General Shalikashvili's decision to not let them investigate the crash site, and instead let the Iraqi government "investigate" the site first. Speicher definitely seems to have been sold out for political reasons. Evets70 (talk) 16:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I deleted the last statement about him never being captured. This is not a known fact. Depending on the families wishes, Dover mortuary or DoD may release further. It is a known fact that the investigation could have been handled better. Hindsight offers us a chance to review the political decisions that possibly compromised the investigation. But such a blatant statement such as "never captured" is not appropriate at this time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajsama (talk • contribs) 18:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

This is getting frustrating. We need to stick to the facts as we know them now. We are still putting unconfirmed information and citing sources that don't backup the facts. The fact that his remains were found in the desert does not mean that he was never captured. It means that his remains were found in the desert -- that is it. As of today his story is homepage paterial on most major new sites. It is frequently discussed on CNN. This article is getting quoted for background material by the major press. We are talking about a deceased U.S. aviator who deserves respect and appropriate care with the facts. I am not trying to espouse a particular theory, just pointing out that we need to stick with the facts. With an 18 year time span between the incident and the discovery there is still more work to do to make an affirmative determination about what happened to this aviator. We need an admin to make some type of determination about this, please. Ajsama (talk) 23:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments posted to article page by User:Streetrace442

EDIT:

I don't know where people get their information from, but the guy was no Capt. in the Navy. He was shot down in 1991 but in 1990, he had his photo taken in uniform as an Lt. (O-3). How many people do you know of in our military today at the age of only 33 holding the rank of an O-6? Besides, if he did hold such rank, he would have been a CAW commander at least, not a squadon CO. A squadon CO only holds the rank of an O-5 (Commander)in the Navy. This only proves that Wikipedia is not as reliable as many believe it to be. (moved by Shinerunner (talk) 18:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC))

I understand your statement -- but it is a little harsh. DoD/Navy granted promoted him to Cpt after he was MIA. This produced a significant adjustment to his survivor benefits. When he went MIA he was Lt. Cmdr. He would have been an O-3 or O-4 on the day his plane was shot down. Ajsama (talk) 19:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Streetrace442: PLEASE stop posting comments into the article. If you want to discuss, please post here and we will do the research. Ajsama (talk) 20:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

That was after I tried to explain the information on his talk page. I've added a warning message this time. If he adds comments to the article again, I'll ask an administrator to review the situation. Shinerunner (talk) 22:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Navy policy

There are several mentions of his post-crash (or, given recent evidence) posthumous promotions being "in accordance with Navy policy". I, however, can't find any specific info regarding this policy, either because the policy is obscure or my search terms are too vague or common. Is there an article or section of an article on this policy, including specific requirements for each rank, whether they be length of missing status, possibility of capture, etc? It might confuse others, as it confused me, that the change is status from KIA to MIA which occurred in January 2001 would merit a promotion, let alone the promotion to Captain a year later, which, again, is "in accordance with Navy policy". 98.239.166.251 (talk) 23:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

   This is an obscure Naval policy that is typically not publicized.  It may be found on the internet but it will be difficult to find without proper clearance and without proper access to the sites that I do know that stores the information 74.132.47.144 (talk) 00:32, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I doubt that US navy policy allows a posthumous promotion. Someone who is dead cannot be promoted, as they are no longer a commissioned officer.122.59.140.215 (talk) 08:11, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Arrival of Remains

If no one minds I added the latest bit of info about his remains arriving today (Aug 13) I though it best to put it under the "Memorial and Dedication" section but if someone wants to add to or place it somehwere else the info is there. --76.31.242.174 (talk) 22:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

On an unrelated note I noticed that some info was added in an other section. It seems that the name of the Iraqi pilot who shot down Speicher is now known. However the source note is linked to an article that is no longer there. A search of his name elswhere comes up with sites that have as their source the footnote here in this article. Does someone know how they found out about this person since for the longest time the Navy didn't even know how he was shot down? The sourcing on the Iraqi pilot as of right now does not exist as far as I can see. At least in English media sources. --76.31.242.174 (talk) 22:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Item for "Memorials and Dedications"

I don't have a lot of experience in Wikipedia, so hope I did this right. If not, please help in correcting my entry instead of simply deleting as others on other pages have done.

I just added an entry in "Memorials and Dedications" that a F/A-18 on display at NAS Pensacola was dedicated to Speicher's family. I live in Pensacola and took a photo of the plane last week. I have a copy of the NAS Pensacola base newspaper, the "Gosport", with an article on the discovery of his remains and a photo of the plane with Speicher's children. I mention that as the source for my information. There is also an article in the Pensacola News Journal that mentions the dedication and another article which is now under paid archive retrieval. So I linked to the first two.

I would like to include the photo I took of the plane showing Speicher's name on this page, if there are no objections. I uploaded it to WikiMedia Commons.

Thank you! Mikejapp (talk) 03:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikejapp (talk • contribs) 03:51, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Date of death

This article is contradictory — or at least confusing — regarding Scott Speicher's date of death. The body of the article states that he died in the plane crash on January 16, 1991. In the Loss incident section, it states: LCDR Scott Speicher was flying an F/A-18 Hornet fighter when he was shot down 100 miles west of Baghdad, on the night of January 16, 1991, the first night of Operation Desert Storm. Also, in the Discovery and positive identification subsection, it states: His jawbone ... was found in the desert, where according to local civilians, he was buried by Bedouins after his plane was shot down. This confirmed that Speicher was never captured and that he died during the crash. Yet, in the introductory sentence and in the infobox, his date of death is listed as the following day, January 17, 1991. Can anyone explain this discrepancy ... or edit the article with the correct date? Thank you. (Joseph Spadaro (talk) 00:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC))

@Joseph: There are a couple of time zones (eight!) between Baghdad (AST: UTC+3h) and Washington, D.C. (EST: UTC-5h). Hence: Practically the entire night (after midnight, of course) in Arabia means "Yesterday" in Washington D.C. Often the military refers all things happen to Zulu time (for civilians: it's UTC)- especially in avation. But even based on Zulu time the difference between UTC and AST keeps events for three more hours happening on a "Yesterday" during "Arabian nights". --de:TK-lion (talk) 14:48, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Details of death

Why is it that despite a whole page being devoted to Speicher, there is basically nothing about the circumstances of his death. What was the mission, how many aircraft were involved, what occurred. There is one clue, the reference to another pilot saying "It was that MiG that shot Spike down". Clearly there were at least two aircraft on the mission, they saw a MiG. One pilot at least thought that the MiG had fired a missile. Why no reference to any of this in the article? Incidentally the only reason why the Pentagon claimed it was a surface missile was that the propaganda of the time represented the Iraqi air force as being no threat.122.59.140.215 (talk) 08:09, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

MiG-25

The Pilot name was Lt. Col. Zuhair Dawood not just Lt. .... and he was commander of the 96 Iraqi AF squadron based at Alqadisya AB ( Ain Alasad - Albaghdadi ) ... Not 84 .... Later in late 90s he became base commander00:29, 22 August 2015 (UTC)00:29, 22 August 2015 (UTC)~~oiaf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Old iraqi AF (talk • contribs)

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Links in “Discovery and positive identification”

All the links about SEALs go off to Marine groups. Which is right? 06:30, 6 August 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4CA0:BF0:9963:7125:3C6B:1BB4 (talk)

Cause of death

How did he die? If he inscribed the E&E sign, he must have survived the ejection. Was it heat stroke/exposure? — THORNFIELD HALL ^(Talk) 06:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The third sentence of the article states that the cause of death is unknown. The article is also reasonably clear that the markings photographed by the satellite "might possibly" have been an E&E sign, not that it was. Heck, most of the article is filled uncertainty, because we don't - and almost certainly never will - know the specifics. Almost two decades passed before only his bones were recovered; there's simply no way to determine cause of death. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 19:20, 5 August 2024 (UTC)