Talk:Breakcore

/Archive 1

Attitude

I find the claim about breakcore being an "attitude", like punk, very vague. I mean, what is this "attitude"? If you take a look at the Punk ideologies page, you'll find that pretty much every position imaginable has been associated with punk rock. I understand that the idea is that breakcore producers don't wish to be pigeonholed and rather adhere to principles of constant innovation, avant-gardism, oppositional and critical viewpoints, etc., but frankly I'm not sure how compatible that is with discussions of genre. Maybe individual producers choose to constantly break out of previously established parameters, but in that case they should be developing a new style, rather than continuing to call their work "breakcore". I mean, the genre's existed for more than a decade now, right? Aryder779 (talk) 02:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Musical genres (including punk -- which is basically a raw, simple take on rock & roll, largely aiming for some sort of brutality) are defined by what they sound like, not 'attitude'. Breakcore is not a movement, it's not a scene, it's a very broad genre. It's hard to describe, but when you hear breakcore, you know it's breakcore and you know it without knowing anything about the musician's attitude. Whether you're listening to something from the Flashbulb's 'Flexing Habitual' or Drumcorps or some Scotch Egg, it's all clearly breakcore. I also find the article sort of... glamorizing of breakcore. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love a lot of breakcore to death, but most of it is pretty formulaic.. distorted, sped up Amen break + a heavy distorted bassline. The article seems to be eager to get new people to discover this "totally awesome, unique, free thinking style" (which is debatable) rather than give an insight about the music, its past and its fanbase..Seeofseaof (talk) 19:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

"rather than continuing to call their work "breakcore" " well, alot of them refuse to call their work breakcore, the scene is very wary of this term, because of definition pages like this one, that offer DEATH BY DEFINITION. Because they don't feel at home in the formula. but they were making breakcore, whatever the formula, before the formula was there! ok, the attitude thing could go, but it still shouldn't be brought back to just amens and gabberkicks, because it isn't. I've been to a million breakcore shows, and there's alot of amens and alot of gabberkicks, but alot of everything else aswell. But an improved definition could be ok, just keep it vague enough, there is this will to be unique and experimental or whatever in most breakcore musicians, so that's an attitude and by definition defies stylistical definition. ha! --Droon (talk) 20:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh wow, Droon, you were great at Dour, awesome fucking night. Anyway, yes, it's not all 'gabber kicks and Amen breaks' and no one's saying the article should just be about that, but it's hard to deny that a lot of breakcore musicians are like that. Of course, a lot of them aren't, including my three examples (The Flashbulb, DJ Scotch Egg and Aaron Spectre/Drumcorps aren't) and the article shouldn't be reduced to a description of that seeing as plenty of musicians don't even use the Amen and mix the style up with black metal or whatever. My point was that this article shouldn't cater to what the breakcore scene likes to hear but what the music actually is. Of course, as you are part of the scene, you are emotionally involved (and so am I, I make breakcore myself as well), but this article shouldn't be some sort of glamorization and mystification of the scene, since a lot of what's written here seems to be about advertising it as the new millennium's answer to avant-garde jazz and free thinking music. Breakcore exists as a genre, we all know that. Because when we HEAR breakcore, we recognize it and chances are, we love it. That's what the article should be about, it shouldn't be about keeping the definition vague because we don't want breakcore to become formulaic and bland since that equals pushing a personal agenda on to others through an encyclopedia. Given that there's an event called 'Breakcore Gives Me Wood' and that there aren't any polka musicians performing (I hope I didn't give you any ideas here =|) yet there are similar sounding electronic musicians performing, there's obviously something to the sound and that's exactly what we're looking for. If breakcore was about attitude and a certain approach to music in general (same with other genres), The Dillinger Escape Plan or Dälek would be on this page and playing breakcore festivals, since they both strive for extremity through genre mixing.

The revisions done to the breakcore article since this talk page was started are good, though. And I feel like we've got a much better balance of politics/scene and sound/style. If we could all expand on the scene (for example, the politics and attitudes that are commonly associated with the scene, not the music) and if we could keep the scene and the music seperate, that would be pretty much perfect since readers would get a whole idea without having the scene and or music influencing each other's meaning.

And it is interesting that you mentioned that many musicians disagree with the term breakcore, but keep in mind, punk used to be the same way. Emo too. Iggy Pop doesn't view himself as punk and Guy Picciotto doesn't think Fugazi had much to do with emo. However, these are musicians who are emotionally invested into what they do and therefore not the best objective judges. I think it should be noted that musicians like Electric Kettle or Drop the Lime disagree with the 'existence' of breakcore and it should be something the reader has to keep in mind to get more than one viewpoint, but it shouldn't be seen as the absolute truth or more relevant because they're called breakcore musicians.

I am glad that someone who is basically one of the original members of what we call 'breakcore scene' is willing to contribute to the article/discussion, by the way. The more viewpoints, the better. But we (including me) should all be as emotionally detached on it as we can be, it can be hard to be critical of something that is important to you, but we should keep it fair to the reader, not the musician.Seeofseaof (talk) 13:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

shutup droon, your music is awful —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkeyatemydog (talk • contribs) 11:54, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Raggacore/breakcore merge and references to IDM

Raggacore is a tiny article that seems to be grasping for relevance. I mean, "Run the Place Red remix", seriousy? Great, great, great song and all, but it's Richard D. James' only contribution to ragga/breakcore and it hasn't reinvented the style at all or done anything we didn't think was capable before. Breakcore takes a lot of forms, it's a broad genre, to call raggacore a significant subgenre based on some ragga rhythms and vocals goes too far, I would say. Are Durmcorps, Sangre, Bong-Ra's 'Full Metal Racket' and Hecate different enough and most of all, are those differences significant enough to have a separate article on breakcore/metal hybrids? I wouldn't say so. ESPECIALLY since "raggacore" is pretty insignificant on the broader musical scale since breakcore more than accurately describes it as well, I really don't think we need a separate article for it. Wouldn't it better to add the raggacore part to this article, and reduce the number of examples to FFF, LFO Demon and perhaps Bong-Ra and 2 or 3 others?

Also, should we reference IDM as an influence on breakcore? IDM doesn't seem to be a genre as much as a way for the rock press to categorize ambient techno, jungle, breakcore, downtempo, trip-hop, ambient house, glitch and so on as an indie rock friendly entity to market to people who are scared off by the words 'techno' or 'house'. Apparently, Squarepusher is every bit as "IDM" as Kettel, both kickass musicians, but I fail to see how they're that similar at all. Reducing the primary influences of breakcore in the first paragraph to jungle/dnb, hardcore techno (which would including anything from gabber to speedcore) and perhaps noise or industrial or glitch (I guess it depnds on what's best sourced) would suit the article much better and make it a lot more clear to the casual reader. IDM is a term that hasn't truly been adopted by anyone because it encompasses things we already have words for and mainly seems to be used by people outside of electronic music, so I don't see why it should be used in this article. If IDM is meant to be synonymous with "Planet Mu/Warp/Rephlex" records, then I feel like Warp records should be named an influence (if we can find sources that back up that claim, but Venetian Snares has named Luke Vibert an influence and Droon has named Squarepusher and Aphex Twin influences on his myspace). Rephlex is a vanity label of Warp and Planet Mu is a top producer of breakcore anyway. Thoughts?Seeofseaof (talk) 14:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

You seem to think what i think Seeofseaof :) I think both raggacore and IDM are unnecessary. Youve already stated what i also think about them. It seems like people that are not really into the scene what IDM is uses it to label everything that is "irregular electronic music" because theyre uncertain what to say about it or something. However, Intelligent Dance Music is a stupid term. I mean, whats so intelligent about it? Also, I dont think IDM has influenced breakcore a lot since i dont hear that. No one would say breakcore has much in common with for example Autechre, right? Also, whats IDM, could really be any subgenre in electronic music, so how could we be sure what has influenced it really, just be saying IDM? :) No sir, i dont like it at all! // Sculpted Noise —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.219.145 (talk) 20:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Quick question: What about The Bug? Definitely raggacore, but does his music qualify as breakcore? Aryder779 (talk) 23:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm I wouldn't call him raggacore as much as very ragga influenced. I only have, and love, London Zoo and Pressure. London Zoo is borderline dubstep with toasting. Pressure is ragga/dub type stuff. It's all very ragga influenced but not raggacore. Raggacore is basically 'breakcore with ragga vocals and riddims', but in my humble opinion it's not significantly different enough from other breakcore to deserve its own article and breakcore in general is a melting pot of genres with musicians picking liberally from any genre they enjoy. There's really not much in the raggacore article that couldn't be covered here as well..Seeofseaof (talk) 22:31, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Links

There are some odd links on the breakcore wikipedia entry. What exactly are the rules about adding links to this article? Some communities are mentioned but sites like http://www.breakcore.nl/ and http://unitedelementsofhate.net are not listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaap3 (talk • contribs) 15:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

additional influential artists/labels

I would like to see the addition of Planet MU records and Sublight Records (two highly popular underground labels which adopted and helped develop breakcore) and artists Venetian Snares, Aphex Twin, the Flashbulb and Squarepusher as influential artists (for obvious reasons). Anyone who does not agree to this should see the massive Venetian Snares thread on the www.Ihatebreakcore.com forum, or the sheer amounts of VS hits on YouTube. Lemphek of ASMS. 129.96.126.4 (talk) 04:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I mentioned adding Planet Mu as an influence myself and I agree. Venetian Snares IS a highly influential breakcore musician, but I mean, he's a breakcore musician himself so you would have to focus on his influences, I mean, yeah... breakcore is influenced by breakcore, makes sense I would say so I don't see the point of making special mention of that, other than him being a more well known export of the genre and as far as the Flashbulb goes.. I don't know. Benn Jordan is my absolutely favorite musician, but a lot of what he does seems to be rather unnoticed in the breakcore scene (though I would argue that the Lawn Wakes and his stuff as Dr. Lefty is genre defining) and while he's done a lot to push the genre forward, it hasn't really caught on among his peers, he seems to be influenced more by other breakcore musicians like Venetian Snares or Enduser than the other way around (which is a-ok, he does it much better than pretty much anyone else, anyway and I mean, keep in mind, the dude truly hopped on the breakcore bandwagon in what? 2002? 2003? The style of music hasn't changed dramatically since then and I'd argue that the biggest creative push forward, to the genre as a whole, was made in 2001 with the release of tons of Venetian Snares records). Most of the heads that are down with breakcore, they love the FFF, the Aaron Funk, the Bong-Ra, the Society Suckers, the Electric Kettle and the Donna Summer and all, but Benn Jordan frequently gives me blank looks when I mention him. Squarepusher and Aphex Twin have influenced a fair number of breakcore musicians (such as our contributor Droon) but I think that can be limited to "Warp Records". Other than that, it is safe to say that breakcore would be alive and well even without Aphex Twin and Squarepusher (I feel like Remarc has had a much bigger influence on the genre than Squarepusher).Seeofseaof (talk) 08:10, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Characteristics

It's nice to see a section, but could it be rewritten? I've had this in mind:

Breakcore is hard to accurately describe and musicians like Electric Kettle, Drop the Lime and Christoph Fringeli have argued that breakcore is a catch-all term that encompasses various related, though different styles of electronic music that are related through mindset rather than sound. Regardless, there seems to be a common element of aggression or chaos, unconventional song structures and sudden shifts of rhythm in breakcore music. Perhaps the most defining characteristic of breakcore is the drum work which more often than not is based on the manipulation of the Amen Break and other classic jungle and hip-hop breaks in high BPM which are frequently distorted to make them sound more aggressive. Distorted Roland TR-909 bass drum sounds aren't uncommon either, which has led to breakcore, either mockingly or affectionately, to be referred to as "gabber kicks and Amen breaks" and while that formula is prominent in a lot of breakcore, it's certainly not a necessity or the end all, be all characteristic of the style.

I thought it describes the genre as accurately as possible without giving people the impression that it is limited to "gabber kicks and Amen breaks", though I'm afraid it mostly describes what it 'doesn't sound like', if that makes sense. We could get rid of the "Amen break" section and just link to it through the description... not even the drum n bass article has a separate Amen break section and I would argue that the break is more important to the genre than it is to breakcore. Yay? Nay?Seeofseaof (talk) 08:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I say yay to that. If you ask me, people often seem to think its all about the amen break, the gabber kicks and the hard distorted bass, but that doesnt always have too be the case. The more it focuses on those particular ingredients, the more it becomes a recipe of how to make breakcore, and when that happens, we have kind of lost the whole idea about a lack of musical rules. Just look at this: http://72.249.77.26/~flabs//wiki/index.php/Breakcore#What_is_Breakcore.3F Thats the kind of stuff i want to avoid... // Sculpted Noise

Changes

Alright, less talk, more action. I'll make some changes since very few people are discussing things here to improve it. Understandable. Thank you to the people who agreed with me so far!

I'm removing all the 'stylistic origins' bar drum n bass (which includes jungle) and hardcore and perhaps industrial. Plenty of breakcore is not influenced by any other genres mentioned and the whole 'jungle vs dnb' debate is silly and the layman doesn't even care. I'm also removing the word 'IDM' for aforementioned reasons (courtesy of Sculpted Noise): no one KNOWS what 'IDM' is, so how do we know it has influenced breakcore? I'll rewrite what I see fit. Don't like it? Change it back and discuss it here.Seeofseaof (talk) 19:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Alright, there's more. Let's pull together the first few paragraphs. The mention of Bloody Fist is important (and sadly, lots of people overlook the label), but void of any relevance. Just a meaningless quote with no relevance to breakcore at all. Praxis is every bit as important as DHR, Ambush and Bloody Fist and deserves as much of a mention, let's just not turn it into separate paragraphs mentioning the labels. I'm more into the music than the history, so while I can name the classic tunes, the details on the history of the genre are kinda lost on me. Hotdamn this article does need some work. *get's crackin* Seeofseaof (talk) 19:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh and from now on, let's not try to say that 'breakcore is really complicated' and such. Loop an Amen at 230 bpm, add a gabber kick and you can call it 'breakcore'. It's a wide genre, some of it is rather simple, other is facemeltingly intricate.Seeofseaof (talk) 20:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

By the by, raggacore now redirects to breakcore. I suggest expanding my introduction to the article by a phrase or two, expand the description and add two 30 second samples (perhaps some Christoph Fringeli or Eiterherd and Venetian Snares, get some variety in style), add a paragraph about raggacore and an example (being the fanboy that I am, I suggest Dr. Lefty). Then a section on the scene, the influence of the free teknivals, the squat scene, party crews/events (Wood, Wasted) the internet (C8, Widerstand) and so on and last but not least, the history of breakcore (including a clip of an Alec Empire recording, mentioning DHR, Praxis, Bloody Fist, Ambush), the current state of breakcore and mention some of the labels involved with the genre (Suburban Trash, Sublight, Planet Mu, Cock Rock Disco, Ad Noiseam). Working a mention of the UK gabber scene in the article would be a good idea. Yup, I'm bored today. --Seeofseaof (talk) 00:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Citations will be added later on. I know there's mentions of Benn Jordan, Hecate and Drumcorps using live instrumentation and I'm sure Aaron Funk has used recorded instrumentation on Roszz etc as well, now I gotta figure out how I'm supposed to quote documentary films (with 'Notes On Breakcore' and whatnot) to back up some of my additions. I'll make a separate 'Characteristics' headline and add 'raggacore' as a sub.--Seeofseaof (talk) 12:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I've put characteristics first and added a redirect from 'raggacore' to the raggacore section I added. I know this is done clumsily, since I don't have references/sources, but I this'll be sorted with time I am rather sure. I renamed 'developments in the genre' 'breakcore today' because we've had 'influences and developments' before, which, by the way, should be turned into 'history and developments', including early hardcore music and its transition to breakcore and WHY (you know, the whole 'we use breaks because we wanted to scare off Nazis', etc deal) and the importance of the internet.--Seeofseaof (talk) 12:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources

This article is a mess. It makes me cry. Anyone have suggestions for reliable, secondary sources so we can start weeding out the non-notable stuff? Print and web are okay, but, please, reliable sources. czar · · 06:36, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

There is still very little authoritatively written on the subject. A sociologist, Andrew Whelan, published what I believe is his dissertation, Breakcore: Identity and Interaction on Peer-to-Peer, and I'm going to try to salvage what I can of its academic-speak into the article. (Which, itself, is a shame because Whelan could probably write a very interesting book on breakcore culture and history if it wasn't for academic publishing, based on his blog and YouTube videos.) I wanted to raise one point: one of his early essays published in Cybersounds ("Do U Produce?") cites Wikipedia for its definition of breakcore (a portmanteau of breakbeat and hardcore), which he then uses in Breakcore the book without citation. If I were to cite the latter, we'd have citogenesis at its worst. Breakcore seemingly passes the GNG for inclusion in the encyclopedia as a phrase, but gets little professional coverage due to its nature as a deep subculture (Whelan would add that its obscurity itself is a shibboleth). If breakbeat+hardcore=breakcore is our best guess, that's fine, but we need to hear it said from a reputable independent and secondary source (not Wikipedia). Anyway, that's my update. Ping me if you find articles from magazines and professional sources—I'd be happy to work them in. czar ♔ 23:20, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Rework

@Ftiercel: nice rewrite, but it would have been helpful to have pushed the changes in increments, because the diff is currently unreadable. czar ♔ 18:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Stylistic origins

Okay, so enough with the frequent changes in "stylistic origins". Please bring reliable sources that clearly connect breakcore with any said genre here for discussion before adding or removing any more. czar ♔ 22:32, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Pages for the artists

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, what does an artist need to qualify for an article? Hecate is a complete nobody in the breakcore scene, yet has an article, but Igorrr, who's music changed the entire genre the same way Venetian Snares's changed the genre a decade ago, doesn't have an article. I know it's not a problem of notability because he has an article on the french wikipedia, is it just a lack of interest?

Lungfluke (talk) 20:42, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

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Question

Does this count? Wtoteqw (talk) 01:34, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

A Wikipedia talk page is not really the place to ask this. 150.176.175.180 (talk) 12:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, A Complete and Utter Destruction of The Sense track indeed feels like a proper modern 2020s' breakcore. It's full of haste, so to say. However, this track (and many Sewer-something tracks as well) belongs to the idea of background music rather than "proper" mind-blowing breakcore. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:54, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Example

I’m working on producing a short breakcore sample to replace the current one. Zanahary (talk) 07:24, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

It was a nice sample, thanks for the sound and the effort! 81.89.66.133 (talk) 15:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

"Vice magazine compared the genre to the types of music used during Guantanamo Bay interrogations."

This line is beautiful in a way I cant describe. NikolaiVektovich (talk) 14:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, Venetian Snares' works hit this hard. 2A00:1370:81A2:4024:613F:D25:6E69:3D1E (talk) 17:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

This article makes no sense

Surely somebody who can actually write would be prepared to help edit this page. It reads like an abandoned blog 87.244.73.38 (talk) 18:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Reizokore, Amenpunk, and Dancecore section

Hello,

I recently added the subsections "Reizokore" and "Dancecore" to the "Mashcore" section while also adding an "Amenpunk" section, and I also edited the "Influences" section. All of these edits used the same source: an interview with a breakcore producer (Shoebill) on a Dublin South FM radio show (Solid Sound FM). All of the new sections in this most recent edit were removed for using "No Reliable Sources". What is most puzzling to me about the new sections getting removed is that my edit to the "influences" section, which uses the same source, is still there. And if that was a mistake and everything in the article using that source was meant to be removed, I don't understand why the source I used is not seen as a reliable source. Dublin South FM is licensed and regulated by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, so despite being a community radio station, it is far from being a pirate or amateur radio station (Dublin South FM). Solid sound FM is a radio show that focuses exclusively on electronic music (https://www.solidsound.fm/). Shoebill meets criteria 5 of Wikipedia:Notability (music) having released music on Kitty On Fire Records (https://kittyonfirerecords.bandcamp.com) as well as Suck Puck Records (https://suckpuckrecordz.bandcamp.com). These record labels are notable despite being indie labels both of these labels have published albums by extremely well known breakcore musicians such as Goreshit, who has multiple songs that have well over 3 million streams on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/artist/2UyOnfaE8nWXKPwYQyp2La). Shoebill does not meet most of the other artist notability standards, but breakcore is an extremely small niche genre, so most of the notability standards will be impossible to meet by almost any breakcore artist. If an interview with an artist who is close to having a Wikipedia article by breakcore standards on a radio show that focuses exclusively on electronic music on a licensed FM band radio station does not count as a reliable source, that seems like a bit of a stretch. Kawaiidumbassery (talk) 02:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I've restored the sections. The editor who reverted you probably simply didn't pay attention. The first two sections, "Reizokore" and "Dancecore", totally lacked any footnotes or other indications of sources, so they were probably quickly classified as "unsourced sections" at a glance. I've added the footnotes to those sections as well to prevent this kind of confusion. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:44, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much! I will be more careful about my footnotes and citations moving forward, I am very new to editing Wikipedia haha. Kawaiidumbassery (talk) 01:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)