Talk:Welsh rarebit

Andrew Boorde.

In his book he clearly states himself as a Welshman, but if you go to his page it has that he's an Englishman. Clarification please? ^_^ Also, one mans opinion on cheese is hardly a suitable base of evidence to support Wales's love of cheese. --Nutthida (talk) 17:57, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Dipping / Distinctions by methods of serving and eating

Does not fondue by contrast typically involve or require fondue forks, and a serving vessel with an active source of heat? Even if a Welsh rarebit may occasionally be eaten by dipping at the discretion of the diner, it's out of a vessel that has no active heat source and the sauce is made with English cheeses. Welsh rarebit may occasionally be eaten with both a knife and a fork, or spread on bread with a knife, both methods of eating appear opposed to how fondue is consumed, and fondue may typically be eaten communally at that. Hand dipping of bread into cheese is certainly possible with Welsh rarebit if the diner desires it. That in no way should be seen as a compromise of its uniqueness. Welsh rarebit seems the more flexible and varied meal. Whitebox (talk) 00:00, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

A reliable source discussing hand dipping would resolve this issue. jmcw (talk) 01:00, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Title of Article

Given the esteemed opinion of W. H. Fowler cited in the article, should we not consider amending "rarebit" to "rabbit" in its title? God forbid that we should be stupid and wrong on the Internet. JSC ltd (talk) 19:29, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Don't be too quickly overly intimidated by the first esteemed that you encounter: first look through the sage discussions in this articles archive [1]. jmcw (talk) 16:45, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of individual writers' opinions, the article is -- by its own admission -- named after a mistake. That is clearly causing confusion. Surely, it would be more helpful to everyone -- editors and all other readers alike -- if it were named Welsh rabbit with Welsh rarebit as the alternative. JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 02:55, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

This dish has two names. One name is only used to name this dish. Who is confused? jmcw (talk) 05:58, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The article is confused. That is because most references, historical sources and current dictionary entries, refer to Welsh "rabbit". Attempting to bring those references into line with the article title by changing source material from "rabbit" to "rarebit" makes things worse and imposes POV.JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 09:40, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

You are correct to say that there is confusion and POV involved in "rabbit" vs "rarebit". As you can read in Talk:Welsh rarebit/Archive 1, many people were involved in choosing the name of this article. Please respect the consensus formed by other editors after much discussion. jmcw (talk) 14:25, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I have read about the decision to use "rarebit" in the archived Talk section. The trouble is, the decision makes the article confused and, as often happens, a consensus at one moment does not necessarily make a good decision. More to the point, your edits belie source material and impose your POV, and are not conducive to encyclopaedic principles. Will you kindly accept what the source material contains without modifying it?JoeMCMXLVII (talk) 14:57, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I welcome other editors to comment. jmcw (talk) 15:18, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I might not be a high and mighty editor, merely a lowly reader, but I have come to an article called 'Welsh rarebit' only to learn (by reading said article) that it is actually 'Welsh rabbit', even though the other variant is also used but considered to be wrong. So... colour me confused. Consensus trumps reality? 88.68.185.115 (talk) 15:34, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I always read that "rabbit" is correct too and "rarebit" is wrong even though Stouffer's sold it in stores as "Welsh Rarebit". But at least it mentions both variations in the first line. TheBlinkster (talk) 20:35, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

The correct name has nothing to do with etymology, or we should all be spelling "island" without an s. Neither "rabbit" nor rarebit" is more correct than the other, though those who call it "rabbit" seem to be eager to swing that hammer. 2601:182:C800:59:B51B:1B9F:569C:88D1 (talk) 17:42, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to be so bold as to suggest that if the article is confusing, we should remove the ridiculous assertions about "correct" usage. I would make these changes myself, but I'm 95% certain my edits would just be reverted, and I have no desire to engage in edit-warring. 2601:182:C800:59:B51B:1B9F:569C:88D1 (talk) 17:54, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Regardless of "right" and "wrong"-ness, as 88.68.185.115 points out, it's jarring to have the official page title be the later term when they are in at least equal use. The page should be moved to "Welsh rabbit" and "Welsh rarebit" should redirect to that page title. You would not have Acorn redirect to a page about acorns titled Eggcorn (seed), would you? 76.115.180.187 (talk) 21:44, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I quite agree. 'Welsh rabbit' is the original and correct name for this dish; 'rarebit' is a later genteelism. 2A01:CB04:86D:4300:6482:D75D:7848:B9E9 (talk) 14:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

I also agree, and I question the claim, made several paragraphs up, that there was a "consensus formed" to name this article "Welsh rarebit". That's not my impression from reading Archive 1. BrianH123 (talk) 15:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Legends and Humour

As an American, I have no idea how common Welsh rarebit is as a dish there, but the first I had ever heard mention of it was a Bugs Bunny cartoon (name and the details of the cartoon escapes me) where, I think, a king, chases Bugs because he wants Welsh Rabbit for his meal - it's only at the end of the cartoon, it's discovered that this is a dish that does not include rabbits. Does anyone else remember this cartoon? Otherwise, I probably would not have heard of the dish until I learned about Winsor McCay's work.Jtyroler (talk) 01:39, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

You must be a young(er) American. Stouffer's used to sell "welsh rarebit" in frozen TV dinner form for many years. It was also in cookbooks in the 1960s (the explanation for the name being that when men didn't return from hunting with any real rabbit, they made cheese on toast for dinner instead). It may have been one of those dishes that kinda went out with aspic.TheBlinkster (talk) 20:33, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

It's rude and dismissive to assume someone is younger just because they didn't see the same TV dinner or read the same cookbooks as you. 76.115.180.187 (talk) 21:40, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Could someone please replace the picture with something that looks more appetizing?

The picture makes the dish look really unappetizing - could someone please replace it with a better picture?

Corruption

Wikipedia has come along way too late. In about 1960 I had a brief argument with my father, who said that I shouldn't say "Welsh rabbit" because that was a corruption. I said that I thought "Welsh rarebit" was a corruption. He didn't like that; probably I wasn't supposed to disagree with him, but worse yet I wasn't supposed to disagree with the prevailing opinion of "nice people" or whatever. And now, much too late, Wikipedia actually says that "Welsh rarebit" is a corruption of "Welsh Rabbit"! Right after all this time.

Actually it's not a corruption. What is, if we went to go beyond calling it a variation or modification, is a hyperurbanism-- changing something to make it sound more polite or refined. So if anything, it's the opposite of a "corruption". (Even though, as the article mentions, there's no such a thing as a rarebit in any other context.) I always thought that maybe the deal was that the Welsh were so poor they didn't even have rabbit meat, so they had to eat cheese, but that probably doesn't make sense and there's no mention of that in the article.

Anyway, look, guys, I'm not going to change this, since it proves I was right and my father was wrong, but when you say a variant form of a word, it's not a "corruption"! Language change and variation is not decay, it's just change and variation. Languages aren't getting worse (or better), they're just constantly changing, like a lava lamp as John McWhorter likes to say. So let's let go of this characterization of all variant form as corruptions, OK? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neurodog (talk • contribs) 22:01, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

It's an eggcorn.76.115.180.187 (talk) 21:37, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

"when it enough lays it on the bread"

Is this quoted text correct? What does it mean? 86.151.48.25 (talk) 21:17, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Mock Turtle

I am wondering about the comparison with mock turtle soup. Mock turtle soup is specifically made to mimic the flavor of turtle when people couldn't get turtle meat. Welsh rabbit was not an attempt to mimic the flavor of rabbit meat. Can this comment be removed?73.53.72.243 (talk) 21:17, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, that quote doesn't add anything to the article. I've removed it. --Macrakis (talk) 21:54, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Short description

@Macrakis: The article lead currently says it can be served on pieces "of toasted bread or served in a chafing dish like a fondue". I'm not sure if this is correct I usually use it as a sauce for pulled pork or burgers and there seem to be some reliable sources supporting other uses, but it does seem to be most typically served over toast. I don't mind either way but if you do change the short description, please fix the article content to match. Spudlace (talk) 23:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I answered in the Edit summary, but I can explain at a bit more length here. Constance Spry's cookbook, which is cited for the "fondue" comparison, does indeed compare it to fondue and prepare it in a chafing dish, but pours it on toast and doesn't suggest any other uses for it. The toast is an integral part of all descriptions and recipes I've come across, but of course if there are other notable uses, we can mention them. Though I don't think that changes the "core" concept. --Macrakis (talk) 22:43, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

It's fine it's a versatile sauce in general I've even brushed it on flour tortillas and used it as taco sauce, but that's because I cook the pork in ale to begin with and just needed something to do with the jelly. I didn't even know it was welsh rarebit when I made it I learned that later on Wikipedia. I just used whatever I had to make sauce. Burgers are probably the most common "other notable use" I can think of. The classic form of the dish is the version served over toast whether other ingredients like pulled pork are added or not so it's fine. Spudlace (talk) 00:08, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I haven't seen the sauce by itself called "Welsh rarebit", just the dish consisting of that sauce over toast.

I've created a new Cheese sauce (disambiguation) page covering various cheese sauces. We may want to move it to Cheese sauce (currently a redirect to Mornay sauce) or make it into a substantive article rather than a dab page. --Macrakis (talk) 14:30, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

You're right. OED agrees with you. But OED can't stop people from using it to mean "mustard cheese and beer" topping for burgers. [2] Spudlace (talk) 17:00, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't dream of stopping people from innovating! -- I simply wasn't aware of that usage.

Maybe you could add a section to the article talking about the extension of "Welsh rabbit" to a sauce used on other dishes (with WP:RS, of course). I don't think that changes the central meaning, as reflected in the short description. [3] mentions "rarebit burger" (but with no details) in 1984! Presented as an Iowa specialty in 2004: [4] --Macrakis (talk) 17:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

AKA Mousetrap / Merge with Cheese on Toast?

Stumbled over this whilst looking up a reference to "rarebit" and realised it's basically an alternative term for Mousetraps - bread usually toasted both sides in an oven on grill, cheese melted on top, then tomato sauce added. That being said the article refers to the Cheese on Toast article but what's the difference? Is it basically that this article is for pre-20th century usage of the term, and CoT is basically current recipe variations and terminology? Note Cheese on Toast would not mean Mousetrap to me but probably simply sliced cheese on toast. Terms vary by region and country. 2001:44B8:2104:4600:41CA:173B:A2F5:7E94 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 10:17, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi IP. It's a regional thing, certainly - I've personally never heard of "Mousetrap" as a food. Cheese on toast, however, I have heard of - which in my research has generally focussed on simply combining Cheese (something like a cheddar) and toast, through melting. There's a few recipes, including pre-toasting the bread and melting on the grill, or only toasting one half etc. Welsh Rarebit recipes, however, focus on making a thick cheese sauce, and grilling that upon the toast. Often, the sauce would include beer in too - so there is a fundamental difference there.

The other thing to keep in mind is the wider cultural aspects that Welsh Rarebit have, linking it quite firmly with Welsh cuisine. I see the Wikipedia has changed a bit since I last worked on it, so perhaps it needs a bit of work to help clarify these differences. Worm^TT(talk) 10:30, 1 April 2022 (UTC)