Talk:Scouse

POV check

There was a {{POV check}} template inserted on this page for no apparent reason, with no attempt made to justify it. I have removed it. Previously there was a cleanup notice, but I can't see any need for that as the article seems to be a perfectly reasonable linguistics discussion of the Scouse accent. -- Arwel 11:10, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm inserting a POV check on the article, because many of the things aren't clear as to what the mean. For example, The final letters of many words are often lost in a glottal stop: i.e. 'get' becomes 'gerr.'

What is meant by gerr hear? Does that mean that they pronounce get to rhyme with burr and purr or does it rhyme with the first syllable of terror?

I think the article does need a cleanup, Steve.

The first case - I think the glottal stop article explains what it is reasonably well. Anyway, this is not a POV issue, which is used when two contributors are disputing the contents of an article - a cleanup request would be more appropriate. -- Arwel 19:51, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Why are they representing the word get with a glottal stop using two r's? An r at the end of a word is not pronounced as a glottal stop and so the spelling gerr does not make it clear what is meant.

Agreed for the glottal stop. A glottal stop is a pause. In Liverpool people elide certain words by adding one or more 'r's. Get off => Gerroff; Stick it in the fridge => Stick irrin de fridge. While the last consonant is dropped there is no glottal stop which the 'r', rolled or not, neatly, avoids. --Blueracam (talk) 20:45, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

{{Cleanup}} is more appropriate than {{POV check}}. But I've also added {{Unsourced}} because we need to have references to linguistic descriptions of the dialect. As for what needs cleaning up, the phonetic transcription should be in IPA so there's no uncertaintly about how get (for example) is pronounced. Also, there needs to be some context about how Scouse compares to other accents of English English: pronouncing get as [gɛʔ] is certainly not unique to Liverpool, but replacing /θ ð/ with /t, d/ probably is (within England). --Angr/_comhrá 14:26, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

'Lancashire has one of the most diverse selections of spoken accents of any English county or region.'

Liverpool's no longer in Lancashire. Whether it should be or not is a different matter, but this statement is either inaccurate, or if modern Lancashire does have one of the most diverse selections of spoken accents of any English county or region, irrelevent to this article.

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is there any point in listing all the scouse words we can think of? it turns the article into a bit of a farce and it will never cover anywhere near enough to fully document scouse slang. this page isn't the appropriate vessel for that.

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The most characteristic sign of this region is use of a hard Z rather than S - hence uz rather than us. This is a dead giveaway to Liverpudlian origins... even in an (almost perfect) RP speaker like myself. (SNC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.185.144.122 (talk) 06:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

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With reference to the confusion about "gerr", the word "get" in isolation is usually pronounced with the final t but it is pronounced often more aspirated e.g. "right" sometimes sounds like "rice" or "rights" to other regions. T can be dropped all together in some words like "it" but not when the word is in isolation as explained...

When followed by a word the final t often becomes a trilled/tapped R for ease of speech. This is very common and can occur between the least suspected of words also using other "connecting" letters e.g. gerri(t) - get it, worriz - what is, wanni(t) - want it (there are MANY more examples).

The glottal stop sounds VERY unnatural in these positions to Scousers! This is something which occurs in other regions however isn't a Scousism (almost a "wool" defining feature) e.g. in Essex butter can become "bu'er" - This doesn't happen in Scouse (nor does the trill/tap in this position).

With reference to the s to z this is true but not in all positions. Weirdly Z can also replace sounds in between words alike the trilled/tapped R in between aforementioned words e.g. gizzuz it/gizzuzi' (or even gizzit/gizzi') - give us it (us often replacing me in Scouse).

These are not rules set in stone and only a Scouser or someone very familiar with the Scouse dialect/accent can accurately perform them in regular speech. Like in other dialects/accents there are different degrees in which people choose to speak Scouse which means people do not abide by all Scousisms creating different strengths of accent.

So the question is, dya gerri' now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.253.153.216 (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

'Lid'

My god, I don't believe all these scouse people never heard of lid before, it is derived from slanging rhyme " BIN LID " = Kid scousers shortened it to lid.. It has even been used in films, was in the Liver birds, and was very common all over Liverpool especially the City. "Look at those bin lids over there up to no good" was common in St Johns market every Saturday I assure you.

Okay, 'lid' is very commonly used. End of. I've also lived in Liverpool all my life.

Indeed the Lancashire comment is out of date. I've never heard of 'Lid' either

I've lived in Liverpool all my life as well, and I've never heard the use of 'Lid'. Even 'La' is fairly rare, but as far as I know 'Lid' isn't heard at all. James R 20:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I've also lived in Liverpool all my life, and I'm 100% sure that 'lid' is never used. 'La' is going out of use, but it is still quite common. --EddieBernard 17:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, maybe we need the originator of the input ``lid`` to comment, certainly as a 57 Year old Scouser, it is news to me !

I've lived on Wirral all my life and never heard it. 81.79.22.201 18:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

its been doing my head in for ages and ive finally deleted it. nobody i know has ever heard of 'lid' being used for lad. im sorry but thats the way it is:) Samgb 10:37, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Bold text'excuse me, sorry to rain on your parade... im 19 and from halewood, and "lid" was fairly common here about 6 months ago, it has however declined in use since then. i have friends from anfield and further north but theyve never heard of it. maybe its a south liverpool word. It definately has been in use though. i may change it. seany87'''''''Bold text'Bold text'

seany87 im halewood too mate and honestly not heard it. the majority here seem not to have either! if you want it in go for it but it obviously isnt widely used and i would certainly put 'la' and 'lad' before it. cheers Samgb 08:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

samgb - i cant believe youve never heard it before! i think its still quite commonly used, although obviously not as much as la or lad. ill do a compromise and say its used rarely. seems to be the fairest way. seany87

I work with sombody from Stocksbridge and he uses "lid" all the time. "La" died out in the 80's —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.25.77 (talk) 16:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I live on the Wirral - you don't hear 'lid' around here very much but I regularly hear it used by friends who live in Liverpool. 80.93.170.99 08:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yer 'lid' was common like a year ago, just another term for lad. diedof quite quick like.

i'm from huyton and lid is still very common. so is lad. la is said but getting rarer and usually replaced by lad or lid. and i'm not talking about a small group of people here either. a lad - december 2006

Wirral isnt really Liverpool is it......people dont say lid very much any more as far as i know but it definitley was used for a while! Im in Fazak btw —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.126.212 (talk) 23:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Might add that it's irrelevant to hear comments on this from the sort of people who usually edit Wikipedia. "Lid" has been common for years (at least 10 from personal experience) amongst people more of the scally persuasion, people unlikely to bother with Wiki. I think it should stay. 82.42.126.4 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC).

Lid is only used by wulls

I can confirm Lid was started by myself and a friend in a work van Russell Wright & Dale Wilson. We started it in 2001. I've since heard other opinions and earlier explanations but the Lid which spread over the last decade simply came from 2 lads in a work van, in Southport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Russdwright (talk • contribs) 23:06, 20 January 2015 ‎

Viking sources?

Are there not grounds that the word 'scouse' is of Viking origin? They settled in the Wirral and Lancashire in the 10th C after being ejected from Ireland, and (though I'm admittedly looking for a reliable source) "scouse" is purportedly a Viking word for "marsh" and also "stew"; Scandinavians still eat Lobscaus. Being such a marshy region at the time, it could have been used to describe the region just as "Liverpool" does. Given that many placenames on the Wirral still have Viking origins there seems to be a logical follow-through.

The German comes from the English, see Scouse (food) for the origins of "lobscouse", and the Norwegian may well come from the English, too:

The Norwegian dictionary online says that 'lapskaus' comes from the English "lobscouse", while the Danish dictionary says that 'labskovs' comes from the English "Lobscouse". [1] Saint|swithin 12:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how this fits in... 20 years ago, my Icelandic girlfriend and I lived in Copenhagen. She told me that scousers could also from be from Copenhagen; not a recent thing, but historical. Maybe an old sailor thing..... but her friends and family confirmed it. I accept, this is 'chicken and egg' stuff. But maybe the influences are not always one way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.120.191 (talk) 21:52, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Other Dialects

Can we also add links to other english accents/dialects under a See Also section?

Merseyside

Scouse is the accent and dialect of English found in the northern English city of Liverpool and adjoining urban areas of Merseyside, northwestern Cheshire and Skelmersdale, West Lancashire.

Is it appropriate to call most of Merseyside's accent "Scouse", as the article currently does? Is there a distinctive Wirral accent? Johnny Vegas provides an example of a distinctive St Helens accent - how about other areas? And is Skelmersdale actually Scouse? DWaterson 17:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

In Response.....st helens doesnt have the scouse accent, skelmersday isnt scouse. scouse would be anywhere from city center out. if u were to sraw a circle of where the accent is most obvious it would be up as far as crosby, lydiate, kirkby, and knowsley, and then right down to speke. not sure how far out into the wirral it is tho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.126.212 (talk) 00:10, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with this point, though there is no distinctive Wirral accent. It's extremely similar to the Scouse of north Liverpool and is particularly strong in Birkenhead and adjoining areas and Heswall. Regarding St Helens, the accent for parts of this borough is near identical to Liverpool scouse, but you do hear some with elements of Lancashire (such as Johnny Vegas or Carley Stenson). Sefton is also an exception - the accent of Formby and areas northwards (particularly Southport) is usually Lancashire. L1v3rp00l 18:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually people in Formby speak with a soft scouse accent, definitely not Lancashire.86.30.191.116 (talk) 11:52, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

How is strong in Heswall? The influence of the Scouse accent decreases the further West you go in the Wirral?

• The problem here is that it is thought that anywhere in Merseyside is Liverpool linked. This is not so. 'Scouse' accent is Liverpool accent, not Merseyside accent. The only people with a Liverpool accent in such places, in Merseyside, as Haydock, Newton le Willows, Garswood and Billinge, are those who are from Liverpool and have moved there. The older residents of these places often speak with a 'broad' Lancashire accent. There are a lot of Liverpool people who now live in parts of Wigan, just out of Merseyside. Winstanley, for instance, would pass as being in Liverpool if the local pub was visited during a televised football match! 80.192.242.187 17:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC) JemmyH.

Having lived on the Wirral all my life, I think there definately is a distinctive Wirral accent that is a bit softer than the Liverpool one. Also, the article says scouse is also heard in north Wales, think thats stretching it a bit and should be removed. Wilston 22:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not stretching it at all. The English-speaking accent of northeast Wales (as opposed to the Welsh-speaking accent) can sound very Scouse, especially near the coast.Bedesboy 21:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thing is, you can't just put the scouse accent within the city limits. I'm from Huyton and there's no way we sound anything like woolybacks. We're very, very scouse. In some cases we're probably more scouse than a lot of city dwellers as the middle class boom brings with it estuary english. Even in Prescot you hear scouse.. but you go like a mile outside prescot and its all johnny vegas style. a lad, 14:03, 5 August 2007

On the topic of woolybacks, the WP article was removed over the Christmas period and which I have requested be restored. It is still up for nomination so if you have views for or against this you may wish to let your views be known at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Woollyback. If you have any more useful and especially sourced information about the term your contributions to the woollyback article would be welcome. Cheers mates ;)--Hauskalainen 22:10, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't say the average middle class southerner in the north speaks with an estuary accent they tend to have a more obviously middle class accent.i know this as a southerner myself...who has an estuary accent...i dont hear many others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.254.173.35 (talk) 12:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The liverpool accent is still developing. Each contributor thinks their local accent is representative of the wider area. There are many distinct accents in Liverpool and Merseyside. To my ears alone, there are 6-8 accents depending how far you travel from liverpool. Each representing the source area of the accent, the new location and its influences; and whether the speakers are 2nd or 3rd generation expat. In Huyton, Rucorn, Kirkby, Skelmerdale, Winsford, and other ouside areas of Liverpool, people try to reafirm their Liverpool credentials by using a strong accent. This is not reflected within Liverpool, especially the south of the city.

I'm not a linguist. I can't articulate my opinion, using linguistic terms.

But, the accent is not Irish. .

The rythym is Irish, with Lancastrian language, phrases and words. The distictive part is the North Wales influence. This determines the strength of the accent. Wales has influenced liverpool for centuries, not visa versa. During the war, many evacuees went to North Wales, and returned with an accent, and happy memories. In adult life they gravitated to North Wales, with their families. Hence the 'caravan in Wales' connection. Many people from Chester (not the tofts obviously) have a 'scouse accent'. This however is a welsh influenced accent, mixed with a northern Enlgish dialect.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.120.191 (talk) 23:06, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Pook?

Is the first line of the article the best place for this info? Also note that there is no reference to 'Pook' in East Sussex --jazzle 09:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Nob'ead?

Thats hardly scouse specific is it? Hear all over the country probably and definetely in London

Perhaps not, but maybe it originated in Liverpool like many words taken for granted across Britain, such as "shag" and "made up". Pobbie Rarr 02:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Christian Bale

Why was he deleted? When he isn't using an accent he sounds exactly like Ringo Starr.70.249.240.12 09:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Christian Bale is Welsh. SteveLamacq43 00:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

So? I've heard Scouse accents well into North Wales before the Welsh accent starts. Being a different nationality doesn't change your accent neccessarily Big Moira 21:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

• I've heard scouse accents well into Spain too. I have a place in Mora, Moira (bum-bum) and my neighbour (600 mtrs away, thank heavens for that) is a 'scouser', but he says he's not a scouser as he only comes from Huyton? 80.192.242.187 17:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC) JemmyH.

... which I guess exactly proves the point you made above, ie that "The problem here is that it is thought that anywhere in Merseyside is Liverpool linked". Huyton is in Knowsley. Actually, then this seems to exactly DISPROVE your subsequent point, that "'Scouse' accent is Liverpool accent, not Merseyside accent". Please, JemmyH, make your mind up! SoniaUK 21:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Most people from outside of Merseyside would identify most of the regions inhabitants as having Scouse accents, but for residents of the various areas, certain locales produce a much broader accent. Think of it as a kind of continuum, with a softer accent spoken in the outskirts, hardening as you approach the central areas around the Mersey. 88.212.174.4 00:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

lerd

This word is used in the speech examples given for 'jigger' and 'pure'. It doesn't sound like any scouse word I've ever heard - I assume it's supposed to mean 'lad'? I've never heard it said that way. Johnwccres 13:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah lerd is a variation on lad. As is la, and lid. Some people just say "alright lerd" etc. that's just about all there is to it. - a lad 14:07, 5 August 2007

I came across the Scottish title Laird the other day, and it made me remember highschool, and hearing it. So with the Celtic influence Liverpool has, maybe its based off of the title. So it would be the Scouse equivalent of London's Guv(nor). - Another Lad - 16:03 - 18/11/2014 (GMT)

Non-Scouse

A lot of the words / phrases listed as Scouse dialect are common in many parts of the UK, e.g. cackhanded, gob, knackers, leg it. It looks as if someone has got carried away and tried to include every slang expression used in Liverpool regardless of where else it is used. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.7.20.133 (talk) 00:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Aye-eh - calm down! Maybe nicking other people's slang is just another event from the Scouse Olympics Bedesboy 20:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok it may just be me, but the word kopite is meant to be koptie in that list of Liverpools words.

I live in Liverpool and I've always heard it said as 'kopite', not 'koptie'. I have no idea if it's spelled that way though. 88.108.142.76 13:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

what the firggin fug is a koptie? are you having a laugh?? also i think the whole slang section is stupid. half of them i've never heard of and half the slang i do use isn't even there. it's pointless to make a list of slang because it will never really work. different estates within liverpool have their own slang words!

Whats up with calling a gary ecstacy. I doubt that Australian Rules Footballers would be an influence on Scouse slang.

Whilst I am confident the above comment regarding ecstacy was merely an example of the extremely sharp Scouse wit, I will err on the side of caution and remind readers of the other distinguished Mr Ablett, who did not in fact play Australian rules football but for both Everton and Liverpool Gary Ablett (English footballer) Midnightsun2007 (talk) 22:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Scouse (food)

There seems to be quite a lot here about the food "scouse" which isn't at Scouse (food). I'm rather loth to move it, though, as it all seems to be unsourced, and the part I did research into mostly turns out not to fit in with what it says in the dictionaries. Maybe whoever wrote it here could provide some sources and then move it to the food article? It makes more sense to have it there. Saint|swithin 12:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe that I am the guilty party. The source for the food portion was listed earlier but was subsequently removed. The original source citation is Davidson's Oxford Encyclopedia of Food, 1st ed. --jadepearl (talk) 18:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Opinion here: Since Liverpudlians are called Scousers, it's probably appropriate to have a mention of scouse in this section. I agree that an in-depth treatise would work best on the scouse (food) page. What's all this about dictionaries? My aunt gave me recipes for scouse, blind scouse and sea pie. I'm pretty sure she didn't get them out of a dictionary! Dreadfullyboring (talk) 12:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

North Hampdenshire??

HorshamScouse (talk) 01:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Edited out the reference to North Hampdenshire which I believe is a fictional location with no association with Liverpool or Scouse. Feel free to disagree.

Scouse speaking celebs

Whilst Anne Robinson can certainly trace her roots back to Liverpool, I think it is unlikely you would find many people who considered her to have a scouse accent, or even really a north west accent. American (and other) readers of this page who may be familiar with Ms Robinson from her work on the 'US Weakest Link', but otherwise unfamiliar with Liverpool could be mislead into believing her accent is indicitive of the accent of the wider city population. Unless there are serious objections, I will remove her entry after giving people a chance to respond. Midnightsun2007 (talk) 22:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I could be wrong, being a godddamyank, as my uncle used to call me. He and my mother were from the Wirral not from Liverpool. The Beatles spoke a bit differently. A.R. sounded more like the Wirral to my tin ears. Leave her in! Leave her in! Dreadfullyboring (talk) 21:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've been wondering about a number of the celebs in the "Scouse-speaking personalities" section. Is Tom Baker's accent "Scouse"? I think the entire list should be reviewed. Simply being from Liverpool shouldn't be the only criteria. 70.20.160.187 (talk) 23:01, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I have recently read and added to this page; and I am sure others will agree that the section (above) of notable Scouse speaking people is out of hand. There are other lists to show the world the who's who of Scousers. It is right to have people with high profiles but obscure musicians?? C'mon.

It's not that i'm against b and z list artists etc but surely it is not for that it should just be a small list of examples of really well known people in differnt fields. Clearly the likes of Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard, Stephen Graham, Gerry Marsden, for example, are all well known. Babydoll9799 (talk) 18:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Pronounciation: back - Bach - Nijmegen

I feel the 'g' in Nijmegen is not voiceless, as the -ch- in Bach is, and as the IPA-spelling x denotes. The text says Liverpudlian pronounces 'back' with a sound as in Nijmegen, or Spanish naranja (of which I do not know the exact pronounciation.). Anybody know for sure whether the text is correct as it stands? Classical geographer (talk) 13:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

"Scouse" local usage only before 'Till Death Us Do Part"?

"The term [Scouse] remained a purely local word until its popularisation in the sitcom 'Till Death Us Do Part' . . . ." - Although I cannot bring counter-references immediately to bear, I find this assertion very questionable.

During the 3 decades preceding that TV serial, a sizeable proportion of the adult British population served in or with the Armed Forces or the Merchant Navy during and after WW2. That service both spread about and mixed together UK 'regional groups' (Scousers, Geordies, Cockneys, Taffies, etc), and few people in the Services or in any maritime, urban or military-heavy area would not have encountered some Liverpudlians and be aware of the (usually affectionate) terms Scouse and Scouser. The "Scouse git" featured in TDUDP may have helped to maintain consciousness of them (as perhaps did 'The Liver Birds'), but I suggest that they were already in UK-wide usage. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I am old enough to remember before Till Death Us Do Part nicknamed all Liverpudlians "Scousers". The word "Scouse" was not used to define the people or accent. Many, myself included, regard the word as derogatory and offensive. These days a Scouser is regarded as a Working Class Liverpudlian with a heavy accent. Educated, well spoken Liverpudlians tend not to like the word "Scouser" being directed at them and outsiders tend not to call them Scousers.78.105.239.54 (talk) 10:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Evolution Or Affectation?

I wholeheartedly agree with this: "The Scouse accent of the early 21st century is markedly different in certain respects to that of earlier decades... Over the last few decades the accent is no longer a melange but has started to develop further. One could compare the way George Harrison and John Lennon spoke in the old Beatles films such as Hard Day's Night and compare with modern Scousers such as Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher." I am wondering if the change accent has evolved naturally, or has derived from an affected pronunciation used by the Scally culture which emerged some 15-20 years ago? There certainly never used to be words ending with a hard 'K' sound ("like", "bike", "book" etc etc) that now have an insubstantial hissy, airy sound in their place ("lykh", "bykh", "boookh").

Guv2006 (talk) 12:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The modern hissy accent is much more prevelent in areas like Skelmersdale where the Scousers needed to be different from the locals to keep their identity. The "Old Skemmer" speaks Lancastrian leaning to the Wigan accent the further east you travel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.25.77 (talk) 16:51, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Another comment on the "hard scouse" 21st century Scouse accent using Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher as examples. I note that both of these are "northern" scousers with Gerrard being from Huyton and Carragher from Bootle. Is there not an issue here (without a citation from an external source) that there is a confusion here between with geographic (Northern) and social class (working- or under- class) Scouse comapted to the 1960s Beatles Southern Liverpool and middle-class accent. There may have been some change in the Scouse accent overall in this time but these icons are perhaps not enough to demonstrate it as you need to compare like with like. Kevin Purcell (talk) 06:16, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Widnes & St Helens

As recorded on Talk:Lancashire_dialect_and_accent

Although people from St Helens and Widnes originally spoke with a Lancashire accent eg. Johnny Vegas, these days younger generations can be found with a Scouse accent but some older generations still have the Lancashire accent

I don't think this is true at all. Of course, it's a well known fact about the small influx of Liverpudlians settling in these towns, but it doesn't necessarily infer the younger generations of native Widnesians and St Heleners speak with a scouse accent. An index of metals (talk) 19:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Scouse or Scouser

At some point I think in the 80's it suddenly became common to talk of a Liverpudlian as a 'Scouser" rather than a "Scouse" - now I know it sort of makes more sense ( A scouser obviously being someone who eats scouse), but it's sort of re-writing history. I remember right through the 70's Yorkshire football teams singing the racist chant "I'd rather be a Paki than a scouse" - never scouser (and my apologies to anyone offended by that - it was and is racist and derogatory).

Why the change ? and when ? 78.32.193.115 (talk) 21:27, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

While I'm not an expert on the subject, the term Scouser was used in an episode of the TV-series 'Auf Wiedersehen, Pet' broadcasted in 1983 (probably filmed in 1982 or 1983). Wayne (a Cockney character played by Gary Holton) said the line 'I thought the idea of a Scouser on health food was a bit unlikely.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.145.79.221 (talk) 09:19, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

the term "Woollybacks"

It says "Scousers often call people from outside their region as "woollyback kebles". I have never heard of "kebles". What's that? As far as i am aware it is straight forward woollyback's. Babydoll9799 (talk) 11:06, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Variation within

Just wondering if something should be noted about the different traditional styles within scouse. Today these seem to be less evident but I think up until the 90's there was a clear differentiation between the accents from around Bootle to that of Dingle and Huyton. Ringo Starr and Michael Angelis had a very accent typical of Dingle. While Tom O'Connor's is very common around Bootle. The accents of footballer Mickey Quinn or the members of Frankie goes to Hollywood are common around Huyton. Maybe there are more examples of this or even different styles? Xenomorph1984 (talk) 21:08, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

scousers call people from outside liverpool woolybacks or wools for short, these are usualy people from wales, lancashire or yorkshire. this dayes back to when we were a major port, the liverpool dockers would refuse to unload ships laden with wool because it was infested with fleas and lice, dock workers from outside the city would have to be brought in to unload the ships, carrying the wool off on their backs, hence the term. these days somebody can be referred to as a wool for having bad dress sense or having a bad hair cut, also for not being streetwise — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.180.238 (talk) 13:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Variation of Wirral accent

A user is persistantly removing any text relating to the variation in the Wirral accent. While i myself do not have any "evidence" or sources to add, it is clear that a) Wirral is not Liverpool and they identify as Wirralians and b) a Wirral accent DOES indeed distiguish itself from a Liverpool accent. Whether people like it or not however people from the Wirral particularly Birkenhead do sound like Scousers and are identified with people from Liverpool, for example Paul O'Grady/Lily Savage. This means to me that you must include reference to people from Wirral on the Scouse accent page and also include reference to the difference not least because they are not from Liverpool. So why do people persist on removing this distinction? Babydoll9799 (talk) 13:15, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The issue will have been the assertion that they are "plastic scousers" and thus putting on the accent in order to be cool, hard and associated with the City. The fact is that Liverpool is not the only place to have a "scouse" accent it's just the largest defined city or town to become associated with the accent.

The equivalent would be to accuse St Helens people of having "plastic Lancastrian" accents because they don't live in Lancashire. Koncorde (talk) 08:46, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Apart from posh people or people who are originally from outside the area (which is the same for most of the rest of the Liverpool City Region) people in all parts of the Wirral generally have a scouse accent. There is a 'Wirral' variant which is quite soft but this is no more different than the regional divisions in the rest of the city region; such as the harsh Bootle/North Liverpool 'Jamie Carragher' sort of one or the slow Dingle Ringo Starr, or the soft suburban South Liverpool one that John Lennon had that sadly seems to be dying out. Incidently, Birkenhead is the exception on the Wirral. It sounds more like North Liverpool. If the Wirral variation needs to be mentioned, then for consistency, any other variations need to be added too but this could cause no end of dispute and confusion as most of these 'inter-scouse' dialects have no strict boundaries and are getting increasingly muddled as the accent continues to evolve and people settle in different areas - the housing clearances of the 60s certainly mixed them up somewhat.

In the end though, there's no point trying to find a clear boundary where scouse starts and ends. It's undefined and changing all the time. It's simply the accent found in the city of Liverpool and several neighbouring areas not officially part of the city but within its metropolitan area and may have some local variations. Really, the reader doesn't need a line which suggests where it starts and ends. It's not that important in the grand scale of things. 92.25.108.136 (talk) 17:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources

There needs to be a concerted effort to add reliable sources to this article - rather than relying on people (including me) writing what they think they know. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:28, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly, I was off finding a range of citations. Koncorde (talk) 14:17, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I just noted the changes, and, apart from removal of "plastic scousers" (which i might add i did not coin the phrase) this is fine... I just wanted to ask why you say "not associated with Liverpool" with ref to Rainhill, Whiston and Prescot? Why such a negative connotation? After all they are places on the outskirts. In years gone by you might suggest they were more Lancastrian, but now? Babydoll9799 (talk) 20:55, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Nothing negative about it, or at least it was not intended to be. I'll see if I can rephrase it as it wasn't my intention to suggest there was something wrong or untoward. It was just an example of the spread of the Scouse accent into Lancashire accented areas as a result of Liverpools success and its absorption of surrounding areas. The village of Huyton (and by extension Roby) now popularly considered Liverpool proper actually fought to be considered a municipal borough in their own right (and fended off absorption into Liverpool once). Prescot, Whiston and Rainhill, as the next 3 towns along Warrington Road after Huyton and Roby, have never really been associated with Liverpool. Post Code aside, they are not considered "scouse" or Liverpudlian - however they have a growing number of residents with the accent (as does Sutton, and Four Acre in my home town of St Helens) that I was hoping would be demonstrated by the paragraph.

Actually, a map of "scouse" would be an interesting addition, if reliable sources could be found, though we should probably also make it clear that scouse isn't really just a Liverpool accent. Liverpool just happens to be the largest entity within a region that has developed the accent over successive generations. The Wirral accent is just as much an original "scouse" accent as that found in Liverpool.

As for the "plastic scouse" thing. I haven't found a reliable reference for it beyond obvious humour sites. From my own experience it's applied to anyone with a scouse accent outside of Liverpool, but particularly the exceptionally harsh sounding scouse accent that is even thicker and more pronounced. But that's my opinion, so Original Research (as was the original assertion about who it applied to and why).

I'm flying to the US tomorrow so my usage will be down for a week or two. I hope I have provided plenty of sources for you to work with if you get chance, and look forward to helping rebuild this article on my return. I look forward to your edits and suggestions. Koncorde (talk) 21:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Clwyd?

Personally I feel that the mention of this area of north Wales in the first paragraph should be removed. Whilst I accept there may be the odd similarity between the Scouse accent and the accent of this area, I don't think many people from Merseyside or indeed the surrounding area would agree that the people of Clwyd have Scouse accents. To my mind it should be removed, what do other people think? 78.148.131.169 (talk) 12:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

The article doesn't actually say that "the people of Clwyd have Scouse accents". Its suggestion that "the accent is known to be as far reaching as Clwyd" appears to be based on this article, which says: "...Studies have found that some Scouse features, such as where the “k” sound is pronounced “kh” in words such as back, are becoming more prominent and widespread. The effect has even spread into north Wales..." I think the wording of the article should be clarified, perhaps to say: "Some features of the Scouse accent are becoming more widespread.." - which is, I think, all that the listed sources claim. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure that there was a part of one of the articles explicitly discussing Clwyd, but a quick scan search didn't pull anything through. Maybe a ref has been lost? Will have a look. I have a suspicion it was a BBC article with interviews with people from the area but I may be mistaken. Koncorde (talk) 21:51, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Looks like someone originally used a BBC blog article introducing the Wales component, however no mention of Clwyd - I can't think I would have left it in during rewriting if I hadn't also read it. However North Wales is referenced a few times as an area to which the accent is spreading (though not as explicit as to state Clwyd) in other articles "One study found that the Scouse inflections have spread far beyond its heartland in Liverpool to places as distant as North Wales" [[2]] etc. Finding the study would be a nice trick.Koncorde (talk) 22:04, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I think remember the article, something like "I'm Welsh not Scouse". Whilst there are similar features, I still don't think it deserves such a prominent (and to my mind inaccurate) mention in the first paragraph. Perhaps a rewording would be more appropriate, alas I'm not an experienced editor so maybe Koncorde or Ghmyrtle could take on the task 78.150.226.78 (talk) 11:27, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

fur/fair

In my preteen years in Liverpool 3 in the 1950s the vowel sound in 'fair' was never anything other than [ɛː] Pamour (talk) 09:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

th > f, v

The writer(s) of this article seem to be under the impression that the replacement of 'f' and 'v' for 'th' are widespread here in Liverpool. They are not so much widespread. Voiceless 'th' is pronounced as an aspirated 't', whilst voiced 'th' is a sharp 'd' (unlike an original 'd', which, as the article corectly states, is more like a 'z') by most speakers. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:15, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I think your point is the same as mine although at first i didn't realise what you meant. Babydoll9799 (talk) 12:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

The only time I have heard it is with children under the age of ten, or the odd adult here and there. It's not common at all. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:08, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Bath

A recent edit brought my attention to this; forgive me do i read this as both old and new? Scouse referring this as "baf" ? I am quite surprised. From my north Liverpool background some old Scouse and some new Scouse in their accents would never have said baf! More batth. Baf is very lazy and probably to be associated with younger people teens etc. I factor in the Irish in the Liverpool accent with so many words, like think would be tink quite often, even Wayne Rooney says this; and would never say fink! The accent is mixed alright i wonder what other variations in the accent are misrepresented here? Babydoll9799 (talk) 11:24, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

How about the example for "my" when it becomes "me". I would completely agree with saying something like, me ma, or me mum, but in the example i would not say "that's me book/bewk i would have said that's my book/bewk. In the older generation the my is more southern Irish, something like "muy". I'm baffled who come up with this! Babydoll9799 (talk) 11:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, Think is usually pronounced more like dtink (the d/t is usually the same sound), same with Bath sorry I can't write IPA 80.192.75.25 (talk) 00:09, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

The me/my thing is old pronounciation that was wide spread, think of how you pronounce words ending in Y, "properly", "definately" etc.. you dont say "proper-lie" you say "proper-lee", the old pronounciation of Y is "ee", hence My was said "Mee". 167.1.176.4 (talk) 08:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

some changes

I made some changes with an expansion on the pronounciation of 'book' and 'cook'. Feel free to discuss or amend if it makes it better. I had two points to change, one was the assumption that saying boo-k instead of buck was virtually exclusive to the 'northern half' of the city. No explanation with it. The other point on the example book and cook; needed expansion.

I have tried to offer some explanation. As i said feel free to discuss. I accept there are variations in Scouse there is also more softer accent in the south of the city like Garston and Aigburth but it is not exclusive either way.

Book and cook variation is not exclusive to Liverpool, from Manchester, Lancashire, Birmingham, Newcastle, and up in to Scotland, they also mix buck and boo-k. Hope this makes sense? Babydoll9799 (talk) 13:45, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Stoke yes, Birmingham no. No one South of Stoke says ‘boo-k’, definitely no Brummie does that’s for sure. Overlordnat1 (talk) 08:03, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Having lived in Scouseland for much of my life, born and brought up in Huyton since the early 70s, I have never heard the book/buck distinction, except on TV. It's a Lancashire thing first and foremost. Some older people (OAPs) may have the distinction, but it no longer applies to my generation, nor to the ones below it. If you go to bed with a good book, people know from context you don't mean you're sleeping with a rabbit (c/o Phil Cool). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:38, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Class / Economic Background

Scouse is a dish traditionally eaten by the lower-class and poorer peoples of Liverpool and its environs, which gives rise to the association of the users of the accent. There is no mention of this within the article.

Similarly, unlike, for instance Scottish, the Scouse accent is not universal to the residents of the area and it's use is frowned upon in middle and upper class families. It is even the case that social climbers try to hide the accent, with comic results - e.g. Hyacinth Bucket, Paul McCartney & Liza Tarbuck.

Perhaps this ought to be mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.253.51 (talk) 00:55, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Paul McCartney trying to hide his accent ? He was from Allerton, which even today has a different sound to carrot-chewing, scouse eating north-enders. He was not a social climber, he went to one of the top state schools in the country, as did Peter Sissons, who was head boy. I'm a taxi driver and hear different people all day in Liverpool, I now realise that scousers, mostly come from outside liverpool. The original scousers were cleared out in the 50's + 60's and went to live in the surrounding sattelite towns, their children return each saturday night with warped notions of scouseness and warped accent. As for scouse (stew), I have never heard anybody use the word to describe a meal they have had at home. Casserole-yes, stew-yes, but strangely never scouse. I am 45 from Wavertree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.125.241 (talk) 14:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Lobbies is more commonly used to refer to scouse in any case. Scouse the word just became associated with the city and its people, of any social level. It's a historic reference with less relevance as years progress until eventually the origin of the phrase becomes irrelevant. See also Geordie, Mackem, Wollyback, Cockney etc for names that people commonly use for groups with little knowledge of the background. Koncorde (talk) 23:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't wish to contrary, but I've never heard the word lobbies used by anybody round my neck of the woods, and i'm not locked away anywhere dark ! Just goes to show, that the notion of a uniform scouser, with a uniform heritage is nonsense !

Lobbies you will find over in Prescot and stretching into St Helens, Wigan, Manchester areas and over to Stoke and localities. The use of Lobbies has nothing to do with Liverpool, just like "Scouse" as the name of the Stew and its usage in Liverpool isn't actually that common in the younger generations (i.e. you'll likely find it in the Wartime generation). However Labskaus is the basis for the Scouser nickname - hence why it is of prominence in the article. Koncorde (talk) 00:18, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

parody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIhFwLjsQug — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.179.19.10 (talk) 02:04, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

It is a Liverpool Accent NOT Scouse

The word Scouse used for the Liverpool accent is a derogatory word or nickname. The correct Term is LIVERPOOL ACCENT. The title of this article should be changed stating this.78.105.239.54 (talk) 10:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it used to be seen as derogatory among certain people, but much less so now - it's often used with pride. Either way, such assertions need reliable sources before they are included in the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The whole article needs a reliable source. It is mostly made up - 99% is pure opinion.188.222.173.121 (talk) 08:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It's clearly a "scouse" accent, just as it's a "cockney" accent and a "geordie" accent etc. Is it prevalent in Liverpool? Yes. Is it isolated to Liverpool? no - so how is it a "Liverpool accent" only?

That is not so. It is a London accent with Cockney a derivative of the accent. Scouse is like Cockney - a working class accent - and a derivative of the Liverpool accent.188.222.173.121 (talk) 08:40, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. I am a scouser, and I use the word 'scouser' all the time to refer to myself and fellow 'scousers'. The word 'scouse' was once a term of endearment (fathers used it to sons). 'Scouse' and 'scouser' are not offensive to me, unless they are used in an offensive context, in the same way as 'she' could be offensive if used in an offensive manner, such as "SHE [insert snarling face here] told me to do it". Also, as stated above, it is not confined to Liverpool. I am from Knowsley, and everyone speaks it here. It is used in the whole of Merseyside, parts of Cheshire and Lancashire, and even North Wales and the Isle of Man. On a side note, the word 'Liverpudlian', to us, is primarily someone who supports Liverpool FC. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I am a Liverpudlian with a Liverpool accent. I do not like being called a Scouser. Many Liverpudlians do not like being termed as being a Scouser. I do not speak "Scouse". You do, many do not. You are not old enough - Scouser was a derogatory term that Alf Garnet used it on TV to sneer the people, saying "Scouse Git". That is when the word became common. There are variations of the "Liverpool accent" in the surrounding areas of Liverpool, where theb accent has tainted the local Lancashire or Chesghire accents. The hard core Liverpool accent is spoken in Liverpool, Bootle, Birkenhead, Kirkby and parts of Knowsley. In Prescot they speak with a Lancashire accent.188.222.173.121 (talk) 08:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

What you like being called and the common name for the accent are fundamentally different. I don't like being called a "woollyback" but I appreciate that if someone was to do a wikipedia article about the St Helens accent then they may well call it "Wool". Some people don't like being called Geordies or Cockneys - but it doesn't stop the accent from having the name, or require it to be changed (famously Tranmere Rovers fans sing a song about being called "Scousers"). Also Prescot and Rainhill largely have Scouse derived accents these days, as does large portions of Sutton Manor, and some parts of Haydock - while your description of the core Liverpool accent actually doesn't take into consideration rather significant differences between North, South, Soft, Hard etc. Age is irrelevant. Koncorde (talk) 19:47, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It is correct that Scouse is the rough working class version of the Liverpool accent. Many Liverpudlians speak with an accent clearly of the city, but clear with excellent diction, well spoken, not rough and not this Scouse. The article is mainly made up and and is trying to put across that a Liverpool accent is the one spoken by the working class, generally called Scouse.94.193.157.51 (talk) 18:28, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

As I said above, I do have some sympathy with the view that some older people view the term as derogatory. However, that is essentially irrelevant, given that reliable sources like this, this, this and this refer to the Scouse accent without describing it as a nickname. Please see WP:COMMONNAME. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:20, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

PS: This book seems to give a comprehensive history of the term. It starts off (p.xvi) by saying that "'Scouse', in the sense of a form of language, is a relatively recent term... However... the term is well established in contemporary usage..." I'm sure the rest of the book contains more detail, worth including in the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:38, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Liverpolitans?

An editor has said Liverpolitans is a term, does anyone agree? I read this just now and have to say I have never heard of it! Being born and bread I think I ought to know. I think it is nonsense. Is this a new trendy term? Or getting confused with the origins of Liverpool in history books? Babydoll9799 (talk) 11:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Liverpolitan is indeed a term, probably the original term for the inhabitants of Liverpool, fallen by the wayside in terms of popularity in the last century but still commonly referenced in a significant number of texts. Koncorde (talk) 20:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I've never heard of this term. I have never heard of a Liverpool person being called a "Liverpolitan". I disagree, the origins of the city are things like Liliput, etc. Babydoll9799 (talk) 22:21, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

See, for example, this, this, this, this... etc. We go by what reliable sources like these say, not what any one individual believes to be true. "Lilliput" has absolutely no connection with anything to do with Liverpool. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

My mistake on "Liliput". I can't deny your evidence but I'm 40 and have never heard of "Liverpolitan". Always Liverpudlian (or Scouser). Babydoll9799 (talk) 17:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of a Geordie being referred to as a Novocastrian? Koncorde (talk) 23:50, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

What people have "ever heard of" is irrelevant. We reflect what reliable sources say. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:01, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Just highlighting that other terms do exist outside of popular ones. Koncorde (talk) 08:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

/k/ > /x/ in prevocalic position?

Right in the first sentence, the article states that in Scouse the name Scouse is pronounced /ˈsxɑːʊs/. Further down it says that /k/ is realised as /x/ in preconsonantal position only. Which one is correct? Unoffensive text or character (talk) 11:23, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

The later definition is wrong. A word such as "cock" can be pronounced "xox" by someone with an especially broad accent, which is not that uncommon. Often it's a kx though, which the later line is trying to intimate. Koncorde (talk) 22:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

This is lenition of /k/ into /x/ which tends to happen at the end of the word or between syllables. If it happens at the beginning then I agree, it is an accent variation but the realisation of /ˈsxɑːʊs/ sounds foreign to me in all cases. I would use /k/ here and the diphthong also seems off, /aʊ/ probably. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.226.44.229 (talk) 18:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

The reason why it is [k] and not [x] after [s] is because of a rule of English in general - plosives are not aspirated after [s] in English. Unaspirated [k] is much less likely, if at all, to become fricative [x] for this reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.8.202 (talk) 20:16, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Citations

What's with all the references in the lead section? It looks increasingly absurd. The tag at the top of the page still applies, because there are inadequate citations in the main article. The lead, ideally, should not need any references because it should merely be a summary of the main article - WP:LEDE. The whole article needs restructuring, to be based around proper references, rather than what people believe to be self-evidently true. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Scouse "or less commonly known as Merseyside English"

Can I ask who has ever heard of this? There has been an edit to promote this with some very dubious citations. A figment of someone's over active imaginationBabydoll9799 (talk) 22:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Seems OK to me - [3], [4], [5], [6], etc. The citations need to be made accessible, but if reputable academic sources use the term, so should we. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

You can't be serious? Anyone could come up with a term, ie I am now saying Wirral English. So where is the proof of this other than some dubious academic? I am appalled I'm totally flabbergasted I really can't believe anyone could believe this. I can't for the life of me see any substance to this.Babydoll9799 (talk) 22:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to admit that you are wrong on this. It doesn't matter if "we" (non-academics) don't routinely use the term - it is perfectly clear that academic sources do use it. So should an encyclopedia. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:32, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Just hope there will be other people to question this. It's nonsense. I question academics etc coming up with very dubious terms and I'm sorry the sources are also dubious just because they are written does not mean that it is correct or factual. I'm gobsmacked you are agreeing with thisBabydoll9799 (talk) 22:35, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:SCHOLARSHIP - "Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses." Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

As I've said to Peter238, I remain unmoved that it is someone's (ie an academics) imagination and it has suddenly got in to books. The term may have got the green light to the article but it does not mean it is correct or factual. Has any Scouser ever said they spoke Merseyside English? I think notBabydoll9799 (talk) 22:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe I wasn't so respectable when reverting your edit, Babydoll9799. I apologize. But talking with someone whose only arguments are various forms of the word "nonsense" is not a pleasurable experience, to say at least. May I ask why do you consider the sources I used "dubious"? Those are three different books (the oldest one is from 1990!), by three different authors. Ghmyrtle (thanks by the way) pointed you to even more sources. When adding the name "Merseyside English", I merely wanted to point out that some (most likely a minority, but who knows) people use this term. Yes, the only places I saw it were various books about phonetics/linguistics etc. But we really need to clarify something: nobody is trying to force people to use this term, nor is anybody trying to say that most people use it. And the fact that Scousers don't use this term doesn't make it wrong. Man, I don't use I don't know... 60%? 80%? of words that exist in my native language, many of which I'm not even aware of. Does that make them wrong? I really don't think so. Peter238 (talk) 22:50, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) @Babydoll9799 The answer to your question doesn't matter. This is (or should be) an encyclopedia based on reliable sources, not a collection of information that people - whether local or not - believe is true. If academic phonologists and linguists use the term, so should Wikipedia - giving it due weight of course. . Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:53, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not relevant what a scouser may or may not say about their own accent. Merseyside English is a bit of a messy reference (I, for one, live in Merseyside but don't have such an accent) but it's clearly referenced. I don't think it warrants a headline mention though in the lede. Koncorde (talk) 22:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Well.. see WP:AT#Treatment of alternative names - "significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph." I think the sources I've found indicate that Merseyside English is a "significant alternative name". As my wording says, it's a term used in academic circles, not locally, but that doesn't matter - it still deserves to be mentioned in the opening sentence - as a "posh" term for Scouse, if you like. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:00, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it's too broad a term, but as far as I know there isn't one Scouse accent. You may as well have a milder version of it. Peter238 (talk) 23:02, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I don't. I don't want to get into that level of pedantry, but suffice to say the Scouse accent exists but it's far from prevalent throughout Merseyside. As for where it appears in the article - I think it currently looks bloody awful in the opening sentence, and "significant alternative names" is open to debate. Due weight for mentioning the uncommon name I would have thought better included with relevant academic discussion under phonology or something. Koncorde (talk) 23:20, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

"Scouse accent exists but it's far from prevalent throughout Merseyside" - Watson, Kevin (2007), "Liverpool English" (PDF), Journal of the International Phonetic Association, 37 (3): 351–360, doi:10.1017/s0025100307003180 doesn't agree, and he goes quite deep in describing this accent. I can't really comment on the rest. Peter238 (talk) 23:32, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. It's obvious from those sources that the term "Liverpool English" also needs to be added to the opening sentence. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Considering all opinions, I still believe it alleges that it is FACT that Scouse is called Merseyside English, when this (in my opinion) has no substance, other than academic circles. Agh, maybe it should be rephrased to say of Scouse, indeed some academics/authors etc refer to Scouse as Merseyside English.............but there should be a definition of why that is so.Babydoll9799 (talk) 23:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

It is so because it is spoken in the Merseyside area. It's the same reason why Geordie is called "Tyneside English" by some scholars. Peter238 (talk) 23:11, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

No that isn't correct. It is still Scouse, just because it so happens to be spoken past the arbitrary council boundaries. It is also Merseyside "English" - which is basically another way of saying a local English accentBabydoll9799 (talk) 23:15, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Looks like you're right. The article states that "the accent is known to be as far reaching as Flintshire in Wales, Runcorn in Cheshire and Skelmersdale in Lancashire", and this sentence has lots of sources. But then there's this: "Scouse (...) is an accent and dialect of English found primarily in the Metropolitan county of Merseyside, and closely associated with the city of Liverpool." So, most probably, this name comes from the fact that Scouse is spoken primarily in the county of Merseyside. It's an unsourced statement, but would you agree? Personally, I don't know. I'd rather study phonologies of accents than their exact reach. Peter238 (talk) 23:21, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I personally would have had that last piece the other way round, ie "primarily spoken in Liverpool and surrounding areas in the county of Merseyside". However I'm going to bed I've made my point it's about opinionsBabydoll9799 (talk) 23:26, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

John Bishop is not a scouser

John Bishop was born in Liverpool. But moved to Cheshire and went to school there all his life. His accent is, therefore, a mix of scouse and cheshire. Many people in Liverpool think he exaggerates,. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.85.94 (talk) 13:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

If you heard the accent of someone from Murdishaw, I don't think anyone would believe he is exaggerating. Koncorde (talk) 21:27, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

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Birkenhead

I see that this point has been raised beforehand but not for some years.

Doesn't Scouse belong just as much to Birkenhead as to Liverpool? I know that Liverpool is a much bigger town, but Scouse arose from the migrants from Wales and Ireland, and Birkenhead had just as many as Liverpool. As Knowles says in the definitive work on Scouse, the very first mention of Liverpool speaking differently from the rest of Lancashire also mentions Birkenhead as having the same way of speaking. In mentions before that, Liverpool is shown as speaking with the Lancastrian dialect, which [we can only presume] existing before the Irish and Welsh arrived.

I know that Birkenhead is separated by Liverpool by a large river, but they share the same history of migration that has determined their dialect. Epa101 (talk) 12:01, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

The association of being a "Scouser" is attributed in most notable and popular media as meaning the "Liverpool" geographic area which would include Birkenhead as few go into any such detail as to specify the specific regional accent being used (Birkenhead sounds very different to Liverpool, which itself has several variations). So while it may have historic links to both sides, it's most strongly associated with Liverpool.

There is also then the argument that to be "Scouse" is specifically to be from a certain portion of Liverpool (meaning the accent does not define necessarily all who have it). So places like Maghull, Bootle or Kirby in the north would have a Scouse accent, but they are not actually scousers as they are not from Liverpool but Sefton.

Then there is the fact some in Birkenhead, and Tranmere have a famous song about it, also refute the "scouse" name. Not everyone who has a similar dialect, as identified by Knowles, would necessarily consider themselves Scouse, and not all sources would go to such level of detail.

What is your suggested change to the article? Koncorde (talk) 12:43, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello. Thank you for your response. I didn't realise that some in Birkenhead refute the "Scouse" label. Having realised this, I have changed my mind.

From a purely linguistic point of view, Birkenhead is often treated as speaking the Scouse dialect (e.g. see the British Library here), but I don't want to offend any local sensitivities by changing the page inappropriately. Epa101 (talk) 19:53, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't honestly think you'd offend anyone (okay, maybe). Like calling someone a cockney, or associating the cockney accent with people outside of a particular region of London it can be quite fraught with sub-dialects however. I'm all ears for suggestions of improving the wording if reliable sources back it up. Koncorde (talk) 21:47, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Juskan book

the following reference (open access) might be a useful addition:

Juskan, Marten. 2018. Sound change, priming, salience: Producing and perceiving variation in Liverpool English. Berlin: Language Science Press. http://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/210

Jasy jatere (talk) 14:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Vocabulary

Hi everyone, just thought I'd leave a message here because I think this article, while informative, focuses too much on the accent and phonology and very little on the vocabulary associated with the dialect. I think more information should be added on the words, phrases and different vocabulary used in Liverpool and the surrounding area because Scouse/Liverpudlian is not an accent alone, but a dialect of English. I might add some myself if I have time but it would be great if other users can add some detail on this provided the information is sourced and I am happy to hear different opinions on this matter here, many thanks. Broman178 (talk) 09:02, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Update audio samples

All three accent examples are by male voices, where are the females...? It would also be relevant/interesting with not only a recent example (John Bishop) but someone younger. Three old male examples seem a bit outdated. 94.234.67.176 (talk) 06:02, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation of a final schwa

A trait that developed as an extension of the NURSE-FAIR merger is the way that a word that ends with a schwa in RP can end with an e (or maybe ɛ) so that, for example, scouser is pronounced /skaʊsɛ/. Are there any reliable sources proving this obvious fact that we can find? I don’t want to be accused of original research, only to get reverted, if I add it. Overlordnat1 (talk) 15:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of Liverpolitan identity for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Liverpolitan identity is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Liverpolitan identity until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Jonathan Deamer (talk) 16:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)