Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Deletion policy page.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52: 180 days

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Wikipedia. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

Archives

Non-numbered archives from 2003

This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by when more than 3 sections are present.

Storage of deleted articles

Currently, the section Wikipedia:Deletion policy § Access to deleted pages includes a sentence stating that deleted articles remain in the database (at least temporarily) - my emphasis. WikiBlame tells me that this was inserted in 2008 with Special:Diff/241376527.

The qualifier at least temporarily can be read to imply that deleted articles will be permanently erased after a retention period, which is contrary to my understanding that deleted pages/revisions are kept in the database indefinitely. I’m therefore proposing to remove that qualifier (my reason for starting this discussion rather than making the edit boldly is because I wanted to make sure that my understanding is correct/that there wouldn’t be any other problems with making this edit).

All the best, ^user:A smart kitten_meow 12:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that the WMF do not guarantee that deleted revisions will remain available in perpetuity. The likelihood of deleted revisions ever being permanently deleted is massively lower in 2023 than it was in 2008, but at least theoretically still possible. The original version of Oversight (pre 2009) also permanently deleted the relevant revisions, although it's unlikely that was what was being referred to. Thryduulf (talk) 20:05, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since it would be an extraordinary event, maybe we should still remove that part. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Meh. It's still accurate, and I see no reason to increase the level of expected retention. We know it's probably sticking around... but do we want to promise that? Don't think that's our place as a community: we don't own the infrastructure. Jclemens (talk) 00:57, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we should just replace it with footnote [c] from Wikipedia:Viewing and restoring deleted pages Aaron Liu (talk) 02:32, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better to copy that footnote here and add it to the end of the text quoted above, giving it context, rather than replace it. Thryduulf (talk) 02:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly also it might be worth speaking to the devs to confirm that statement is still accurate nearly 17 years later. Thryduulf (talk) 02:49, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve emailed answers

wikimedia.org with the query and a link to this discussion, so hopefully someone from the WMF will be able to provide the latest information. Best, ^user:A smart kitten_meow 09:43, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion means deletion. The deleted page archives ARE TEMPORARY TO FACILITATE UNDELETION OF PAGES WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DELETED and are subject to being cleared or removed AT ANY TIME WITHOUT WARNING. --brion 00:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) 19 January 2007

Emphasis and ALLCAPS as per the original.

- SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:30, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is what we are discussing directly above. A smart kitten has emailed to see if this 17-year-old statement is still accurate. It would seem foolish to do anything before we get an answer. Thryduulf (talk) 10:36, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a reference to edit histories being quite unreliable in the very early days of the encyclopedia (I believe before around 2003) see WP:UuU. It may be technically correct but unnecessary in practice. --Trialpears (talk) 14:29, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I vaguely remember there was a policy decision to never flush deleted revisions due to the CC-by-SA attribution requirement. But that could just be leaky neurons conflating different discussions. RoySmith (talk) 15:40, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You find all sorts of weird crap if you look through the primordial database. For example, WP:VPT#* in comment table? that I found yesterday. What's really weird is that revision_ids aren't (weren't?) assigned in monotonically increasing order. Step through the earliest history of the WP:UuU in chronological order. The revision ids go:

291430
385544927
302608
13692247
15927838

My brain hurts. RoySmith (talk) 15:56, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, turns out this is documented

Note that while rev_id almost always increases monotonically for successive revisions of a page, this is not strictly guaranteed as importing from another wiki can cause revisions to be created out of order.

RoySmith (talk) 16:19, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which is exactly what happened. —Cryptic 01:25, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've had an email response from the WMF as follows:

I've heard back from Legal, who noted that they do not see a need to change the wording in that section of the deletion policy at the moment.

All the best, ‍—‍a smart kitten_[meow] 08:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comuni

I propose the deletion of most of the Italian comuni. One thing I have never understood about this encyclopaedia is this: what's the point of creating so many pages (over 8,000 pages of Italian comuni) and then leaving them to their own devices? This isn't the way to treat pages. I do my best to improve them, but not even in forty years would I manage to improve 8,000 pages of comuni. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, the problem is not specific to Italy. Many other countries have numerous articles about places with a handful of residents (probably one or two ordinary houses) which are apparently notable. Certes (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Be ruthless and bold. There was a set of village articles I looked at about a year or so ago, and after checking all of them I realised that a) they were mass-created, and b) didn't have anything other than a name and location (and maybe a population count). Redirected them all to the district they were found, and (as far as I know) they haven't been rewritten. I'm all for improvement but for some things it just doesn't make sense to waste time doing the research for such a little improvement. Primefac (talk) 19:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I can't spend my whole life on Wikipedia. I'm already "ruthless and bold" about Italian cuisine. In September 2023, I started to improve the pages on Italian cuisine and now, after a long time, I'm very satisfied with the great, enormous results; and I'm not finished yet. I'm sorry, but I'm one, not thousands. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:57, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair enough. I suppose that 8k pages is a bit much to go through, even with something like AWB. Batch nominations for deletion would be possible as well, but again, even if only 10% of pages fall into the AFDable category, that's still 800 pages... Maybe the best option would be to start an RFC at WP:ITALY to see if there's a general consensus to just redirect them all (at which point a bot could take care of the actual editing). Primefac (talk) 20:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Primefac: self-correction: 7,904 comuni in 2021, but nothing changes. JacktheBrown (talk) 20:13, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New users creating articles in talk pages: G8 or draftify?

I am seeing a lot of new users attempt to sidestep restrictions on article creation by putting material in a talk page for a non-existent article. The material is usually too poor to be a useful draft, or violates what Wikipedia is not. The pages often do not meet any CSD criteria besides G8, although they might meet article-specific criteria if they had been created in articlespace. When should these talk pages be draftified instead of tagged for deletion? Helpful Raccoon (talk) 20:19, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that just what G8 is meant for? See Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G8. Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page:"G8. Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page: Examples include, but are not limited to: Talk pages with no corresponding subject page ...". Straightforward. PamD 20:43, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One time someone removed my G8 tag and draftified the page. Draftifying might be useful at least for plausible drafts in talkspace. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 20:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Although, the page that was draftified was essentially an essay. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 20:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes the page is in good enough shape to be moved to article or draftspace. Otherwise, G8 might apply. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed; if it's a clear non-starter I'll nuke it with G8. If it looks like it might be worth salvaging I might move it to the Draft space, but I could probably number those with two hands. Primefac (talk) 13:03, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amending ATD-R

The footnote to ATD-R cites RfCs from 2018 and 2021; in the latter discussion, [m]ost users believe that AfD should be used to settle controversial or contested cases of blanking and redirecting.

In a discussion at WT:R, it was pointed out that the current language of ATD-R presents AfD as merely an option, rather than the preferred venue, for contested BLARs. Thus, I propose rewording ATD-R as follows:

voorts (talk/contributions) 01:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current wording is better. If the status quo is an article, then AfD is the preferred venue. If the status quo is a redirect, then RfD is the preferred venue. If a template were to be BLAR'd (current example), then TfD would be the preferred venue. -- Tavix ^(talk) 01:31, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support this; BLAR'd articles are generally low-profile enough that talk page discussions don't usually get sufficient participation to resolve the disagreement. Maybe a more generic reference to deletion discussions would resolve Tavix's concern. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Substitute "Wikipedia:Articles for deletion" with "appropriate deletion discussion venue" and I would support. -- Tavix ^(talk) 01:49, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should avoid giving the impression (explicitly or implicitly) that RfD is the appropriate deletion venue (because it almost never is). Thryduulf (talk) 01:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfD is the appropriate venue way more often then you give it credit for. For example, RfD is the appropriate XfD for Grood even though it was BLAR'd back in 2005. -- Tavix ^(talk) 02:02, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grood is an example of something that would be better at AfD but is not completely implausible at RfD (the content would be an A7 speedy if it is topically in scope, I haven't checked). The length of time something has been a redirect is not relevant to almost anybody except you - what matters is the pre-BLAR content. Thryduulf (talk) 02:10, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The preferred venue for doing so is the appropriate deletion discussion venue" is singularly unhelpful; it's like saying "The preferred venue for doing so is in the right place to do it". The "deletion discussion venue for the page's stable version" gets the idea across, but it's awkward to the point of absurdity. —Cryptic 02:09, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The preferred venue for doing so is the appropriate deletion discussion venue for the pre-redirect content" is simple and unambiguous. Thryduulf (talk) 02:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Including "for the pre-redirect content" would have major unintended consequences. RfD would have to reject all redirects that were previously articles, which is further than even you support. Hopefully you can agree than even if you would prefer that Grood be at AfD, it is something that RfD is capable of handling. -- Tavix ^(talk) 02:21, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're talking about the preferred venue for the majority of cases, not the only venue for all cases. RfD should reject the majority of undiscussed BLARs brought there, but that doesn't mean it has to reject all nominations of undiscussed BLARs and it definitely doesn't mean sending them to RfD in the first place should be encouraged. Thryduulf (talk) 02:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about "In most cases, the preferred venue for doing so is the deletion discussion venue appropriate to the pre-redirect content, although a discussion on the talk page (or at an appropriate WikiProject) can sometimes resolve the disagreement, especially if the redirection is recent. Exceptionally, for example if the pre-redirect content would be subject to speedy deletion if restored, it can be nominated at RfD." Covers all the bases with appropriate weighting, but it is a lot more complicated and I'm not sure that either the parenthetical or second sentence are necessary. Thryduulf (talk) 02:34, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfD should be the preferred venue for pages like Grood. Redirects that contain article content from Wikipedia's wild west days constitute the vast majority of BLAR's that get sent to RfD, and they're usually the ones that get uncontroversially deleted. It's silly to restore article content from a long-standing redirect just because it was an article for a couple months back in 2005 that was redirected without any fuss. -- Tavix ^(talk) 02:39, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We've already established that Grood is one of the exceptions. It can't be both an exception and an example of the vast majority. Once again, the age of the content is irrelevant. Thryduulf (talk) 02:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, Grood is not "one of the exceptions". My point is that standards for articles were much different in Wikipedia's early days than it is now. As Wikipedia's standards increased, the easiest way to handle them was to BLAR them and that's usually the kind of redirects that get nominated at RfD with with article content in their histories. -- Tavix ^(talk) 02:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

what

who is "we" here? cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 12:02, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"we" = the people in this discussion. The reason Groot is one of the exceptions is that the content would be speedily deletable if restored, that is not the case for the majority of content that is BLARed. Thryduulf (talk) 12:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about: "The appropriate deletion discussion venue is preferable, though sometimes the dispute may be resolved on the article's talk page." -- Tavix ^(talk) 02:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's saying "The preferred venue for doing so is in the right place to do it, but sometimes it isn't" which is even worse than your previous suggestion. Thryduulf (talk) 02:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it says that XfD is preferable to the talk page. For what it's worth, I still think the current wording is best. -- Tavix ^(talk) 02:41, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, being more precise you suggestion says "the preferred venue for doing so is the right deletion venue for doing it, but sometimes the talk page is the right venue for doing it", which is a minor improvement to the status quo, but other suggestions are significantly better still. Thryduulf (talk) 02:51, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

that seems good enough, should probably specify that it means the blar's target article's talk page, though. unless that's not what you mean, in which case i'm with thryduulf in this wording being kind of confusing, just not in the way they said cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The appropriate talk page is almost always going to be the talk page of the BLARed page - why would you be discussing the content of article X on the talk page of article Y?. Alerting the talk page of the BLAR's target will sometimes be useful (and rarely (never?) inappropriate). Thryduulf (talk) 12:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

because article x is a redirect, and rfd deals with redirects (like article x). what i usually see in the articles' talk pages are about whether or not to blar article x cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 12:42, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the circumstances we are talking about, article x was an article until someone converted it to a redirect (usually unilaterally) and that redirect has now been objected to. What is being discussed is the article content not the redirect. Thryduulf (talk) 12:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

in nearly all those cases, they're less unilateral and more uncontroversial. no one argues that the blar's content is worth restoring, and the only arguments presented were, as legoktm stated in the list of strogg in quake 2, meta-procedural (as opposed to actually supporting the article's content in any way), and as tavix stated there, incorrect (as nothing states that they have to be restored and sent to afd). in nearly every case brought up here, opposition to blars before rfd noms has been based on flimsy arguments like "but i put so much effort on it", completely unexplained, or nonexistent. if you really want it restored, you should probably make an argument for the article content being worth restoring, as opposed to pointing to some procedure that at best only provides "restore for afd" as a possible option cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 12:58, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I support the proposed change. The relevant XfD for the pre-redirect content simply is the most appropriate venue in the majority of cases (AfD for BLARed articles, TfD BLARed templates, etc), RfD is almost never appropriate and even when it is the other XfD is very nearly always equally appropriate. Talk page and/or WikiProject discussion are fine in some situations and shouldn't be excluded, but they are the minority. Thryduulf (talk) 01:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

on second thought, forget everything i said about my suggestion at wikipedia talk:redirect being a maybe, both discussions have convinced me that naming more than one xfd venue is necessary if any venue is to be named in the first place. the idea that other venues just can't is at best an assumption of incompetence, and at worst an easily avoidable misinterpretation of both the 2018 and 2021 consensus(es) cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 12:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing is saying that editors are incompetent. As repeatedly explained it's about discovery and expectations, so that the relevant editors know that discussions are happening: nobody can be expected to know that article content is being discussed for deletion at RfD because absolutely everything tells them that article content deletion is discussed at AfD and nothing tells them it happens at RfD (because it shouldn't). You also cannot assume (unless they explicitly say so) that an editor commenting on an RfD has assessed the article content behind the redirect against the standards of inclusion for article content, you can assume that at AfD because that is the entire point of AfD. The point of RfD is to asses the appropriateness of a redirect, and so you can only assume that people have judged the redirect by the standards of redirects (which not relevant to the article content). This is the reason we even have different deletion venues for different types of content - you can expect to find editors who are competent and interested in discussing article content at AfD, you might also find them at RfD but you cannot expect them there. Thryduulf (talk) 12:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But if the article content has been under a redirect, the expectation is that it is to be discussed at RfD because that's what it is. RfD editors know to check the edit history and make an assessment on the appropriateness of any content in its history. There has never been notable article content deleted at RfD, which seems to be your big fear. If there's any editors you feel need to be notified, feel free to do so! -- Tavix ^(talk) 13:13, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

oh boy...

no, there's no "absolutely everything" that says that this content has to be taken to afd, the "absolutely everything" in question names afd as an example of a dispute resolution method (see the ol' "such as")
lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack; just because someone doesn't go ahead and say "yeah i looked at the history, there's nothing worth keeping" doesn't mean their "delete per whatever" votes are just done on a whim. it has been stated before that you assuming otherwise borders on bad-faith assumptions. if you really want any form of ambiguity eliminated, i could use a copypasta for it
- yes, i know this argument also applies to people not finding sauce right away, but it's not like you can't notify a wikiproject that might have someone experienced in that area
"articleify" is a possible rfd outcome, see yars rising

cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 13:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're just going round in circles here. You want article content to be deletable at RfD, I and others have explained why (repeatedly, at length) why that is simply inappropriate for multiple reasons, but you haven't listened then and you aren't listening again. I'll stop wasting my time, perhaps others will have more luck. Thryduulf (talk) 14:31, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

then i'll go ahead and say it, in the most blunt way possible. i understand what your explanations mean (unless they equate something to prod or csd at random), and believe that they are not correct in any way, nearly always per what you cite. they have been causing more harm than good, in cluttering nearly every page both of us bump into and doing in months with exhaustive discussion what could be done in a week with comparatively less exhaustive discussion. they have turned consensus(es) from at least 3 years ago into an absolute, undeniable universal constant that requires contradicting existing precedent and policy, and inventing and/or bending policies to hold together something that is, in the end, not the answer every single time without exception. your time is far from the only one being wasted here cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 14:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only reason the discussions drag on months is that instead of you and Tavix saying "yep, this needs to go to AfD like everything says it should" you insist that that everything is wrong and that article content can be deleted at AfD because it would be too much effort to do things properly. Thryduulf (talk) 15:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, a look at that discussion would show at least six editors were in favor of deletion at RfD and Thryduulf was the only one by the end insisting it should be at AfD despite there being no arguments in favor of keeping the article content. Thankfully common sense eventually won out and we got to the correct result in the end, but it was a lot more painful solely because of Thryduulf. -- Tavix ^(talk) 15:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

that's not a hill you want to stick around in, see this, this, this, this, and this. that last one isn't related, i just like it cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 16:04, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

oops, example 4 was wrong, it's supposed to be this cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 16:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support “ The preferred venue for doing so is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion”. Grood should be being discussed at AfD, because the discussion is about the deletion of mainspace content, even if old. It should be deleted at AfD as an unsourced neologism that has not endured.

“although sometimes the dispute may be resolved on the article's talk page” is bloat. It is covered by the word “preferred”. If a reverted blank and redirect is immediately resolved such that the reverter now supports the redirect, XfD is not needed, but rules should be written for resolving real disagreements. AfD is always the preferred venue for disputed deletions and pseudo deletions.

”Suitable venues … include” is too weak to be meaning advice, when AfD is always best for articles. If the concern is that non-articles are the problem, then mention MfD, but I don’t think this advice is justified.

RfD is a stupid place, with its extreme excessive pointless relists and wholesale repeated moves of discussion that break watchlisting of the discussion and make it slightly tedious to find the text of the discussion. RfD is obviously now just for wonks, with a high barrier to unencultured newcomers, and this makes it moreso inappropriate for the discussion of deletion of mainspace content. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i'm not gonna opine on the meat of this (again, that is), but did it really have to end on a borderline(?) personal attack? i only know one wonk who frequents rfd, and it's that cogsan guy (he's a real wonk, hate that wonk, the apple saw probably sawed his apple for being such a wonk) cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 14:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

“Wonks” are atypical of the ordinary Wikipedian. There’s newcomer barriers to participating at RfD, worse than AfD. The weird relisting and discussion-moving practice being a strong example.

On discovering that grood was an inappropriate redirect, due to not being mentioned at the target, the redirect edit should have been reverted, and grood AfD-ed, or PRODded. SmokeyJoe (talk) 18:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Deletion policy" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Deletion policy has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 12 § Deletion policy until a consensus is reached. C F A 💬 20:39, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]