Talk:Razor wire

when was razor wire invented?????

"The first versions of this type of barbed wire were produced by Germany during the First World War. The reason for this was a wartime lack of wire to produce conventional barbed wire. Therefore, flat wire with triangular cutting edges was punched out of steel strips. A welcome side effect was that a comparable barbed wire length of this new type could be produced in a shorter time. These forerunners of NATO wire did not yet have an inner wire for stabilization, so they were easy to cut with tin snips and were not as robust as normal barbed wire. However, they withstood the wire cutters used at that time to cut normal barbed wire, which was common at the front at that time." https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO-Draht#Geschichte

---

Oops. I accidentally marked a major edit as minor. So I've just done a non-minor (but in fact trivial) edit so it shows up in peoples' watch lists. If you see what I mean. Securiger 23:36, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

---

Michael Hardy wrote:

My understanding has been that "use" as a noun means the act of using, whereas "usage" means custom or convention.

I think what was intended in the header you edited was "manner of using". According to my dictionary, "custom or convention" is the secondary definition of "usage"; the primary defintion is "the act, manner, or amount of using". Whereas "use" as a noun has primary "the act of using", secondary "the manner of using; syn. usage". Which is arguably less than a full iota of difference, so I wouldn't sweat it. Securiger 05:26, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Razor wire or Barbed tape?

The article is titled Razor wire, but it talks mostly of Barbed tape. Are these the same, as I suspect? Can anyone knowledgeable fix this? --Orzetto 11:59, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I've moved the article to barbed tape to reduce confusion. ··gracefool |☺ 05:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The two are most certainly NOT the same, as even casual inspection of examples will reveal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.4.159.28 (talk) 19:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Concertina wire merge

Err, why? In my experience, I very rarely hear the phrases "concertina wire" and "razor wire" being used interchangably and I've never heard the terms "concertina wire" and "barbed tape" used interchangably. The modern US Army uses three types of barbed wire-type constructs:

• Barbed wire: Braided wire, with short spikes sticking out of it every few inches. Comes on a reel.
• Concertina wire: A large (1m in diameter, roughly 30m in length) coil, with rectangular razors clamped onto it every 6 inches or so.
• Razor wire: A small (Maybe a foot in diameter, not sure how long it stretches to) coil, with diamond-shaped razors clamped onto it every few inches.

I can't speak for other branches of service or other countries, but that's the terminology as I understand it and the 3 types of wire are very distinct. EvilCouch 16:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

What's the difference between razor and concertina then? Nothing more than the size of the coil? What about the double helix vs single helix aspect? What is the difference between concertina wire and constantine wire?

OK, hope I can answer some of these. "Razor" and "concertina" are orthogonal classifications. "Razor wire" is a slangy term for what manufacturers, quartermasters and city ordinances generally called barbed tape, and refers to the type of cutting surface: blades vs. the points found in barbed wire. "Concertina" refers to the shape into which the wire is formed, i.e. interlocking, mutually supporting coils which are easily expanded (like a concertina); it can be made from barbed wire or barbed tape. The size of the coil is determined by intended function; self-supporting ground based obstacles (which are invariably concertinas) need to be big enough that they can't simply be leapt over, so they are typically about 1 m in diameter (or a little less, if overstretched.) Coils for mounting on top of fences or walls only need to be large enough that they can't be climbed over, which requires much smaller coils. They also don't need to be self-supporting, so they usually are single coils rather than concertinas, which in turn means that the diameter is easily adjustable (unlike concertinas). It should be pointed out that apart from concertina wire, all wire (barbed wire, barbed tape, plain steel wire, speaker cable, whatever) initially comes in single coils. It can then be stretched out to give a straight strand, or left loosely coiled to give it a bit more width. As for "constantine wire"; I have been involved with military, civilian and agricultural wire obstacles for more than a decade, and until I read it here, "constantine wire" to me was a common misspelling of "constantan wire", a special type of electrical cable! I would almost have written it off as a malapropism, although from some quick googling, there does seem to be at least one barbed tape manufacturer now using the term. I would be interested (and mildly surprised) to see if there is any kind of official definition. -- 203.40.201.164 04:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The barbs aren't "clamped on" every few inches; they're part of a continuous piece of tape that is wrapped around the wire itself.

Almost right; the tape isn't wrapped, it's cold-crimped. Yes the crimp is continuous. -- 203.40.201.164 04:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Barbed wire is made of wire alone, twisted into barbs regularly. I can see it getting its own article, though I could also see it being merged, too.

It already has its own article, at barbed wire. Because of its longer history, and its use in agriculture as well as security, that article is much more extensive than this one and could not possibly be merged. -- 203.40.201.164 04:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, though, concertina, constantine, and razor wire are all the same thing, implemented in different shapes and sizes and given different names, but all fundamentally the same, and with overlap between the names and implementations. They should be merged. — Omegatron 16:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The primary difference between concertina wire and razor wire is the shape of the razors. Concertina wire's razors are rectangularly shaped and will catch on your skin and clothes but are unlikely to cause anything more than superficial cuts. Razor wire's razors have pretty acute angles and could result in a nasty cut if you're careless around it.

Concertina wire up close

Razor wire up close

EvilCouch 16:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I just uploaded that last night. I fail to see a reason why they should be separate articles. — Omegatron 17:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Erm, the existing concertina wire and barbed tape articles already explain the difference. Barbed tape ("razor wire") vs. barbed wire refers to the type of cutting surface on the wire; steel wire points vs. steel tape blades. Whereas "concertina" refers to the shape of the interlocking, expandable coils into which the wire is formed, and can be made from either barbed wire or barbed tape. Both barbed tape concertinas and barbed wire concertinas are now quite common in military usage, although the barbed wire ones are the original version and worldwide are probably still more common. In civilian usage, barbed wire concertinas were always rare but barbed tape concertinas have recently made big inroads into the commercial market -- with considerable controversy. BTW the image to the left, labelled "Razor wire up close", is most accurately called long barb barbed tape; it is coiled here, but not formed into concertinas. The linked image called "Concertina wire up close" is short barb barbed tape, and is formed into concertinas. Concertinas can also be made from barbed wire (and traditionally were), for example here is a photo from the VN War era: http://www.utapao.org/harrypiskun/MVC-004For.jpg -- 203.40.201.164 03:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Razor, concertina, con...all the same concept!

Sure, all of them have their differences, but all the wiring (barbed tape (razor wire), concertina, constantine) have the same fixture and surface to them, which is sharp razor teeth that eat through skin when grabbed tightly. All of them have a placement on permanent fencing (except concertina) and have the same purpose. There should be a single page talking about the wiring itself, but also having topics within the article talking about each type of wiring. People won't tell which is which (between concertina wire ITSELF, razor wire, and/or constantine wire) if they were to see them, without them being labeled as such and such. I'm for the merging. JustN5:12 01:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I now appreciate that "concertina" and "razor" are orthogonal concepts, but they are so closely related they need to be addressed in the same article. — Omegatron 03:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Barbed Tape and Concertina Wire Difference

In section 2.1, there was still an argument that Barbed Tape and Concertina Wire are very similar and related. There was a mis-statement:

"...all the wiring (barbed tape (razor wire), concertina, 
constantine) have the same fixture and surface to them, which is sharp razor teeth that eat 
through skin when grabbed tightly. All of them have a placement on permanent fencing (except
concertina) and..."

Barbed Tape has little "razors" and is a format of a barrier wire, Concertina Wire is a type of barrier and can have little razors, OR wire barbs and is meant to be deployed stand alone, not on top of a fence.

From above:

"Barbed tape ("razor wire") vs. barbed wire refers to the type of cutting surface on the 
wire; steel wire points vs. steel tape blades. Whereas "concertina" refers to the shape of
the interlocking, expandable coils into which the wire is formed, and can be made from either
barbed wire or barbed tape. "

This difference is enough to warrant the two different articles, unless there were to be one massive article regarding "Wire Type Barriers" but it doesn't sound like that to me.

Please carefully read through all the previous statements to understand the difference prior to arguing for a merge. Tim Sailor 17:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

As it's been more than 9 months and the consensus seems to be that the articles should remain distinct, I've removed the 'merge suggestion' tag from them. Tofof 05:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

"Countering" section

I just added a {{fact}} tag to the claim that the Bangalore torpedo is useless against the tempered wire. Actually, I am highly skeptical that this is true, for two reasons:

1. Most military grade barbed wire concertinas also have tempered wire cores, and bangalores are far from useless against them.
2. I have never used a bangalore torpedo against a barbed tape obstacle, but I have used them against straight barbed wire obstacles and barbed wire concertinas with high tensile steel cores. The bangalore cuts the wire like a hot knife through butter, tempered or not. In fact, it sometimes even cuts through the steel pickets too.

-- Securiger 08:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I dropped the section. I, too, have seen the statement proven false and since it's been nearly two months since it was tagged and there's no source, it's gone. EvilCouch (talk) 10:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Silly language

"although they may get their shirt entirely ripped off in the process." Surely this can be rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.142.92.45 (talk) 17:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Redundant article: Merge with Barbed Wire

Apart from the fact I've never heard the term "barbed tape" until now (in fact it brings to mind images of very bloody gift wrapping), this article ought to merge with the one on Barbed Wire which is more comprehensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.94.212.119 (talk) 01:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Disagree: Barbed wire is made from a fairly heavy gauge of drawn and annealed steel wire, generally 12.5AWG (1.9mm) in diameter, with short, pointed, tangential sections wound around and between a central pair of wires. It is generally used for cattle fencing. Barbed tape is made by taking either stainless or galvanized steel tape, running it through a machine that punches four barbs into it and possibly crimps it around a single steel reinforcing wire. It is generally used for high security perimeters where success in the attempt to scale or breach is unacceptable, such as prisons, military field bases, airports and nuclear power plants.

Searching Google for "DOD contract barbed tape" will bring up a pair of hits for military procurement of "barbed tape, concertina wire".

There is an article in the New York Times for the 1985 use of it to prevent burglary in Manhattan: BARBED TAPE: JAGGED ARMOR ON THE NEW YORK LANDSCAPE, noting that "barbed tape" is the generic name for what has been sold under the name "Razor Wire" or "Razor Ribbon".

If anything, it belongs in a merge with Concertina wire, as that is how barbed tape is packaged: In a concertina-like flattened helix. Bob the Cannibal (talk) 21:44, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand these sentences.

 "Helical type. Helical type razor wire is the most simple pattern. There are no concertina attachments and each coil loop is left. It shows a natural spiral freely.
 Concertina type. It is the most widely used type in the security defense applications. The adjacent loops of helical coils are attached at specified points on the circumference. It shows an accordion-like configuration condition."

I was under the impression that concertina wire was "helical", unless "helical" isn't a synonym for "coil". If there is some subtle different between the two, I can't make out what it is from the way this article describes it, and it's certainly not clear from the article on concertina wire, which I just read and left with the impression that it is made of a coil of barbed (or razored) wire. So, since apparently there is some distinction between a plain "helical" wire, or coil or wire, let's see if I can figure it out: coil type "lacks concertina attachments"...nope, means nothing to me. "Each coil loop is left"...either means "left" as in "left behind", or it's referring to being coiled to the left; hard to say. "The adjacent loops are attached at specified points on the circumference". This would be the same "attachment points" mentioned previously? Still makes no sense to me; what "adjacent coils"? Surely you aren't referring to the adjacent coils when they built a triple-concertina barrier? Then "it shows an accordion-like configuration"....as opposed to helical type which doesn't look like this? I'd love to see an image of this "helical type" that somehow doesn't resemble the familiar coils of concertina wire.

I do notice on reading through these comments that there is some talk of "double helical" concertina, which is news since it doesn't mention anything about it in either of the articles (except for one place in "concertina" where I changed a "double-helical" into "helical" because I assumed the editor simple mistook "double-helical" for a synonym for "coil shaped". Perhaps they knew more than I thought). Maybe that answers all my questions about the previous; perhaps concertina wire is made up of two strands of wire, coiled into a single, and "helical" wire is just a single loop? But if it was that simple, you'd assume that somewhere in one of the articles someone would have mentioned this fact, wouldn't you? Because in concertina wire they go from talking about soldiers wrapping strands of barbed wire around stakes to make coils, to modern troops deploying it...nothing about doubled strands anywhere. Nothing about "helical vs concertina" types (which you think could be information for that article as much as, if not more than, this one). Can't tell from the photos, but it is certainly possible. Either I'm right, and I figured it out, or I'm wrong and I didn't, but in either case I did NOT figure it out due to the excellent information presented by these two articles. I only came to the conclusion I did finally from reading the damn comments on this talk page and putting two and two together, which isn't really ease of access.

And even if I am right, "adjacent coil" still makes no sense, nor does "attachment points"; perhaps the paired wires are supposed to be connected together every so many yards (of wire or yards of coil?), for some unclear reason, but "adjacent" means "alongside". "Accompanying" would be a better word choice. If I'm right. See, I've done all this thinking and figuring and I still have no clue. Even if you assume I'm not that bright, you shouldn't have to rely on people being smart to understand simple subjects on Wikipedia, or we might as well give up on the whole thing. AnnaGoFast (talk) 01:59, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

If it were presumed that the passages being discussed had a single author, I would confidently say that the author is no technical writer.

These same two passages contests me and for most of the same reasons. If like to add the issue of "accordion-like configuration condition". I hence two problems with this: 'configuration condition' hits my ear broadside, like, 'Huh?' Secondly, this marks the first use of the word "configuration" in the article, which theretofore doesn't mention that there are configurations to any of the products discussed. So it's like, "this configuration as opposed to what other configurations?". MultiScrivner (talk) 10:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Razor wire or Barbed tape revisited

Razor wire or Barbed tape is a section at the top of this talk page from 2005.

Anyhow, I'm confused. Should this article be called razor wire with a section about barbed tape? I'd never heard of barbed tape until visiting this article. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:25, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree, and I also had never heard of barbed tape before reading this article. KnowledgeablePersona (talk) 06:23, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I have not seen the term 'barbed tape' ever used. I've checked both my physical copy of the Compact Oxford English Dictionary, the online Cambridge Dictionary, and Wiktionary; and none of them have an entry for 'barbed tape'. They all, of course, have entries for 'razor wire', as that's the term that the overwhelming majority of people use. I believe it should be moved to 'Razor wire' immediately. Kirkworld (talk) 01:36, 26 May 2021 (UTC)..

Lead image

How about a really good close up for the lead image, or at least somewhere. Maybe lots showing differences. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:24, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 3 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 16:51, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

---

Barbed tape → Razor wire – WP:COMMONNAME. See discussion above. 162 etc. (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support: Never, ever heard it called barbed tape. YorkshireExpat (talk) 21:30, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

  Ngrams shows much higher prevalence for 'razor wire'. YorkshireExpat (talk) 21:34, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support As above, never heard of the "Barbed tape" term. NGrams evidence is further convincing. -Ljleppan (talk) 08:35, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:15, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No Photos or Diagrams Showing Detail - Remove?

None of the visuals in the article allow discernment of the morphology of the various barbs, blades, and barb-to-wire fusing methods which one would expect to see in photos bearing captions referring to types of wire and tape. I squinted to try to see crucial details without success. To me they all looked alike: just spirals.

I would suggest either replacing some of those photos with either close-ups or diagrams, or for want of such, the removal of some of the many photos that litter the article if their subjects can't be distinguished. MultiScrivner (talk) 10:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)