Talk:Colchicum
 | This  level-4 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
| |||||||||||
Image
[edit]Just wondering if anybody knows what species of Colchicum is this:
(taken at about 2200 meters altitude, in the Bucegi Mountains, Carpathians, Romania on May 8th)
- Looks more like a crocus than a colchium. Precinct13 08:28, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- It is a species of Crocus from the family Iridaceae, which can be seen by the presence of three stamens (instead of the six present in Colchicum) and the three-parted "feathery" pistill! A rather nice picture though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.89.87.17 (talk) 22:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- I confirm this is a crocus, I guess Crocus vernus subsp. vernus. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 10:05, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- It is a species of Crocus from the family Iridaceae, which can be seen by the presence of three stamens (instead of the six present in Colchicum) and the three-parted "feathery" pistill! A rather nice picture though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.89.87.17 (talk) 22:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Looks more like a crocus than a colchium. Precinct13 08:28, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Update of the page
[edit]I have updated the page according to the list of species accepted by the World Checklist (Kew gardens) and added a gallery with pictures of the species for which pictures are acailable on Commons. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 10:08, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Colchicine
[edit]I've been looking for sources about toxicity, but could only find them for C. autumnale (and for some hybrids with this species). There are over a hundred other species in the genus, so I had to put a fact tag on the article page. Is there any source that says the entire genus contains colchicine in all plant parts? I could buy and grind some bulbs to see if they would make my pumpkin hybrids polyploid. But that would be original research and again there are over a hundred other species.
- I could not find any mention of the entire genus being toxic. These are the sources I have used:
- Huxley, A. (1992). The New RHS Dictionary of Gardening. MacMillan Press. ISBN 0-333-47494-5.
- Frohne and Pfänder (1984). Colour Atlas of Poisonous Plants. Wolfe. ISBN 0723408394.
- Stary, F. (1983). Poisonous Plants. Hamlyn. ISBN 0-600-35666-3.
- Altmann., H. (1980). Poisonous Plants and Animals. Chatto and Windus. ISBN 0-7011-2526-8.
143.176.56.102 (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Unless you have a source that explicitly states that one species isn't toxic, you don't have a point. You cannot imply that they aren't toxic because there isn't a source that exhaustively states they are. To answer the question, "All parts are highly toxic."
— Berean Hunter (talk) 12:46, 26 October 2017 (UTC)- The website you have supplied says that all parts of Colchicum autumnale are are highly toxic. It does not say anything about the other species. I am not implying that the other species are not toxic, but I am only stating the fact that we have no sources that say they are. Why would it be wrong to ask for a source? I've spend quite some time looking for one.143.176.56.102 (talk) 16:50, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- "pumpkin hybrids polyploid" - do you have a procedure or link for this? I'm wondering why you want tetraploid pumpkins. Not big enough? I have natural tetraploids occurring in Rudbeckia and certainly know what it is. I also know that most of that field of exploration surrounds this. That person seems to have convinced themselves something about plants talking to themselves with mycorrhiza but he doesn't sound like he knows what allelopathy is.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 13:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)- I have been able to make an interspecies cross between Cucurbita Moschata and C. Maxima once (by hand pollination). Plants are very cold hardy and rain tollerant since both parents are from my own breeds that were already adapted to my garden. This hybrid does not produce pollen at all (other than that the male flowers appear normal). Fruit looks like maxima (with a wax coating though). Texture and taste is that of moschata. If it was fertile this cross would be perfect for me. I have tried pollen from different sources including both the parents for a few years, but the fruit will always contain empty seed hulls. I don't want to loose this cross, so I was thinking about soaking the hybrid seed in colchicine before germination. People have tried this with Atlantic Giant pumpkins, but they did not get the big fruit they wanted. I'm only interested in getting fertile offspring. Since I cannot order colchicine in my country I will need to crush the bulbs of C.autumnale. For some reason Colchicum hybrids are easier to order than C.autumnale. 143.176.56.102 (talk) 16:50, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- I came here because I saw the note at WT:WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening. I think the point about polyploidy is about the fact that colchicine induces polyploidy, not because anyone wants polyploid pumpkins. I did some looking around, and I found sources that indicate colchicine is present in other members of the genus besides C. autumnale. This one: [1] focuses on autumnale but implies that the whole genus is toxic. Page 15 of this source: [2] says that "various species" in the genus produce it. And there is a source in which a poisoning turned out to be C. persicum rather than autumnale. I cannot link to it directly because for some reason I get a blacklist warning, but if you go to this Google search: [3], and look for "Fatal Colchicine Poisoning by Accidental Ingestion of Colchicum...", it's the PDF there. I don't know that this proves that all species in the genus produce it, but clearly multiple species do, and we should default to saying that it's in the genus unless there is a source about a species that is colchicine-free. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Link to pdf.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 07:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC)- We can't just assume that they are toxic (WP:NOR). We need a reliable source. It says in the PDF document:
"Plants of the genera Colchicum and Gloriosa, both members of the family Colchicaceae, contain the natural alkaloid colchicine in toxic amounts"
Reference is also in the PDF[1]. That is excactly what we need. Thanks for your help :) 143.176.56.102 (talk) 09:06, 27 October 2017 (UTC)- Good! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:42, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
- We can't just assume that they are toxic (WP:NOR). We need a reliable source. It says in the PDF document:
- I have been able to make an interspecies cross between Cucurbita Moschata and C. Maxima once (by hand pollination). Plants are very cold hardy and rain tollerant since both parents are from my own breeds that were already adapted to my garden. This hybrid does not produce pollen at all (other than that the male flowers appear normal). Fruit looks like maxima (with a wax coating though). Texture and taste is that of moschata. If it was fertile this cross would be perfect for me. I have tried pollen from different sources including both the parents for a few years, but the fruit will always contain empty seed hulls. I don't want to loose this cross, so I was thinking about soaking the hybrid seed in colchicine before germination. People have tried this with Atlantic Giant pumpkins, but they did not get the big fruit they wanted. I'm only interested in getting fertile offspring. Since I cannot order colchicine in my country I will need to crush the bulbs of C.autumnale. For some reason Colchicum hybrids are easier to order than C.autumnale. 143.176.56.102 (talk) 16:50, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ Barceloux, Donald G. (2008). Medical Toxicology of Natural Substances: Foods, Fungi, Medicinal Herbs, Plants, and Venomous Animals. Wiley. p. 693-702. ISBN 978-0471727613.